Tuesday, July 17, 2012

The road from atheism

As most of my readers probably know, I was an atheist for about a decade -- roughly the 1990s, give or take.  Occasionally I am asked how I came to reject atheism.  I briefly addressed this in The Last Superstition.  A longer answer, which I offer here, requires an account of the atheism I came to reject.

I was brought up Catholic, but lost whatever I had of the Faith by the time I was about 13 or 14.  Hearing, from a non-Catholic relative, some of the stock anti-Catholic arguments for the first time -- “That isn’t in the Bible!”, “This came from paganism!”, “Here’s what they did to people in the Middle Ages!”, etc. -- I was mesmerized, and convinced, seemingly for good.  Sola scriptura-based arguments are extremely impressive, until you come to realize that their basic premise -- sola scriptura itself -- has absolutely nothing to be said for it.  Unfortunately it takes some people, like my younger self, a long time to see that.  Such arguments can survive even the complete loss of religious belief, the anti-Catholic ghost that carries on beyond the death of the Protestant body, haunting the atheist who finds himself sounding like Martin Luther when debating his papist friends. 

But I was still a theist for a time, though that wouldn’t survive my undergrad years.  Kierkegaard was my first real philosophical passion, and his individualistic brand of religiosity greatly appealed to me.  But the individualistic irreligion of Nietzsche would come to appeal to me more, and for a time he was my hero, with Walter Kaufmann a close second.  (I still confess an affection for Kaufmann.  Nietzsche, not so much.)  Analytic philosophy would, before long, bring my youthful atheism down to earth.  For the young Nietzschean the loss of religion is a grand, civilizational crisis, and calls for an equally grand response on the part of a grand individual like himself.  For the skeptical analytic philosopher it’s just a matter of rejecting some bad arguments, something one does quickly and early in one’s philosophical education before getting on to the really interesting stuff.  And that became my “settled” atheist position while in grad school.  Atheism was like belief in a spherical earth -- something everyone in possession of the relevant facts knows to be true, and therefore not worth getting too worked up over or devoting too much philosophical attention to.

But it takes some reading and thinking to get to that point.  Kaufmann’s books were among my favorites, serious as they were on the “existential” side of disbelief without the ultimately impractical pomposity of Nietzsche.  Naturally I took it for granted that Hume, Kant, et al. had identified the main problems with the traditional proofs of God’s existence long ago.  On issues of concern to a contemporary analytic philosopher, J. L. Mackie was the man, and I regarded his book The Miracle of Theism as a solid piece of philosophical work.  I still do.  I later came to realize that he doesn’t get Aquinas or some other things right.  (I discuss what he says about Aquinas in Aquinas.)  But the book is intellectually serious, which is more than can be said for anything written by a “New Atheist.”  Antony Flew’s challenge to the intelligibility of various religious assertions may have seemed like dated “ordinary language” philosophy to some, but I was convinced there was something to it.  Kai Nielsen was the “go to” guy on issues of morality and religion.  Michael Martin’s Atheism: A Philosophical Justification was a doorstop of a book, and a useful compendium of arguments.  I used to wonder with a little embarrassment whether my landlord, who was religious but a nice guy, could see that big word “ATHEISM” on its spine -- sitting there sort of like a middle finger on the bookshelf behind me -- when he’d come to collect the rent.  But if so he never raised an eyebrow or said a word about it.

The argument from evil was never the main rationale for my atheism; indeed, the problem of suffering has only gotten really interesting to me since I returned to the Catholic Church.  (Not because the existence of suffering poses a challenge to the truth of classical theism -- for reasons I’ve given elsewhere, I think it poses no such challenge at all -- but because the role various specific instances of suffering actually play in divine providence is often really quite mysterious.)  To be sure, like any other atheist I might have cited the problem of suffering when rattling off the reasons why theism couldn’t be true, but it wasn’t what primarily impressed me philosophically.  What really impressed me was the evidentialist challenge to religious belief.  If God really exists there should be solid arguments to that effect, and there just aren’t, or so I then supposed.  Indeed, that there were no such arguments seemed to me something which would itself be an instance of evil if God existed, and this was an aspect of the problem of evil that seemed really novel and interesting.  

I see from a look at my old school papers that I was expressing this idea in a couple of essays written for different courses in 1992.  (I think that when J. L. Schellenberg’s book Divine Hiddenness and Human Reason appeared in 1993 I was both gratified that someone was saying something to that effect in print, and annoyed that it wasn’t me.)  Attempts to sidestep the evidentialist challenge, like Alvin Plantinga’s, did not convince me, and still don’t.  My Master’s thesis was a defense of “evidentialism” against critics like Plantinga.  I haven’t read it in years, but I imagine that, apart from its atheism and a detail here or there, I’d still agree with it.  

I was also greatly impressed by the sheer implausibility of attributing humanlike characteristics to something as rarefied as the cause of the world.  J. C. A. Gaskin’s The Quest for Eternity had a fascinating section on the question of whether a centre of consciousness could coherently be attributed to God, a problem I found compelling.  Moreover, the very idea of attributing moral virtues (or for that matter moral vices) to God seemed to make no sense, given that the conditions that made talk of kindness, courage, etc. intelligible in human life could not apply to Him.  Even if something otherwise like God did exist, I thought, He would be “beyond good and evil” -- He would not be the sort of thing one could attribute moral characteristics to, and thus wouldn’t be the God of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.  (Richard Swinburne’s attempt to show otherwise did not work, as I argued in another school paper.)  The Euthyphro problem, which also had a big impact on me, only reinforced the conclusion that you couldn’t tie morality to God in the way that (as I then assumed) the monotheistic religions required.

Those were, I think, the main components of my mature atheism: the conviction that theists could neither meet nor evade the evidentialist challenge; and the view that there could be, in any event, no coherent notion of a cause of the world with the relevant humanlike attributes.  What is remarkable is how much of the basis I then had for these judgments I still find compelling.  As I would come to realize only years later, the conception of God I then found so implausible was essentially a modern, parochial, and overly anthropomorphic “theistic personalist” conception, and not the classical theism to which the greatest theistic philosophers had always been committed.  And as my longtime readers know, I still find theistic personalism objectionable.  The fideism that I found (and still find) so appalling was, as I would also come to see only later, no part of the mainstream classical theist tradition either.  And while the stock objections raised by atheists against the traditional arguments for God’s existence are often aimed at caricatures, some of them do have at least some force against some of the arguments of modern philosophers of religion.  But they do not have force against the key arguments of the classical theist tradition.

It is this classical tradition -- the tradition of Aristotelians, Neo-Platonists, and Thomists and other Scholastics -- that I had little knowledge of then.  To be sure, I had read the usual selections from Plato, Aristotle, Aquinas and Anselm that pretty much every philosophy student reads -- several of Plato’s dialogues, the Five Ways, chapter 2 of the Proslogium, and so forth.  Indeed, I read a lot more than that.  I’d read the entire Proslogium of Anselm, as well as the Monologium, the Cur Deus Homo, and the exchange with Gaunilo, early in my undergraduate years.  I’d read Aquinas’s De Ente et Essentia and De Principiis Naturae, big chunks of Plotinus’s Enneads, Athanasius’s On the Incarnation, Augustine’s Concerning the Teacher, and Bonaventure’s The Mind’s Road to God.  I’d read Russell’s History of Western Philosophy -- hardly an unbiased source, to be sure -- but also a bit of Gilson.  All while becoming an atheist during my undergrad years.  And I still didn’t understand the classical tradition.

Why not?  Because to read something is not necessarily to understand it.  Partly, of course, because when you’re young, you always understand less than you think you do.  But mainly because, to understand someone, it’s not enough to sit there tapping your foot while he talks.  You’ve got to listen, rather than merely waiting for a pause so that you can insert the response you’d already formulated before he even opened his mouth.  And when you’re a young man who thinks he’s got the religious question all figured out, you’re in little mood to listen -- especially if you’ve fallen in love with one side of the question, the side that’s new and sexy because it’s not what you grew up believing.  Zeal of the deconverted, and all that.

You’re pretty much just going through the motions at that point.  And if, while in that mindset, what you’re reading from the other side are seemingly archaic works, written in a forbidding jargon, presenting arguments and ideas no one defends anymore (or at least no one in the “mainstream”), your understanding is bound to be superficial and inaccurate.  You’ll take whatever happens to strike you as the main themes, read into them what you’re familiar with from modern writers, and ignore the unfamiliar bits as irrelevant.  “This part sounds like what Leibniz or Plantinga says, but Hume and Mackie already showed what’s wrong with that; I don’t even know what the hell this other part means, but no one today seems to be saying that sort of thing anyway, so who cares…”  Read it, read into it, dismiss it, move on.  How far can you go wrong?

Very, very far.   It took me the better part of a decade to see that, and what prepared the way were some developments in my philosophical thinking that seemingly had nothing to do with religion.  The first of them had to do instead with the philosophy of language and logic.  Late in my undergrad years at Cal State Fullerton I took a seminar in logic and language in which the theme was the relationship between sentences and what they express.  (Propositions?  Meanings?  Thoughts?  That’s the question.)  Similar themes would be treated in courses I took in grad school, at first at Claremont and later at UC Santa Barbara.  Certain arguments stood out.  There was Alonzo Church’s translation argument, and, above all, Frege’s wonderful essay “The Thought.”  Outside of class I discovered Karl Popper’s World 3 concept, and the work of Jerrold Katz.  The upshot of these arguments was that the propositional content of sentences could not be reduced to or otherwise explained in terms of the utterances of sentences themselves, or behavioral dispositions, or psychological states, or conventions, or functions from possible worlds, or anything else a materialist might be willing to countenance.  As the arguments sank in over the course of months and years, I came to see that existing naturalistic accounts of language and meaning were no good.  

Not that that led me to give up naturalism, at least not initially.  A more nuanced, skeptical naturalism was my preferred approach -- what else was there, right?  My studies in the philosophy of mind reinforced this tendency.  At first, and like so many undergraduate philosophy majors, I took the materialist line for granted.  Mental activity was just brain activity.  What could be more obvious?  But reading John Searle’s The Rediscovery of the Mind destroyed this illusion, and convinced me that the standard materialist theories were all hopeless.  That Searle was himself a naturalist no doubt made this easier to accept.  Indeed, Searle became another hero of mine.  He was smart, funny, gave perfectly organized public lectures on complex topics without notes, and said whatever he thought whether or not it was fashionable.  And he wrote so beautifully, eschewing the needless formalisms that give a veneer of pseudo-rigor and “professionalism” to the writings of too many analytic philosophers.  “That is how I want to write!” I decided.  

Brilliant as he was as a critic, though, Searle’s own approach to the mind-body problem -- “biological naturalism” -- never convinced me.  It struck me (and seemingly everyone else but Searle himself) as a riff on property dualism.  But there was another major influence on my thinking in the philosophy of mind in those days, Michael Lockwood’s fascinating book Mind, Brain and the Quantum.  Lockwood was also a naturalist of sorts, and yet he too was critical of some of the standard materialist moves.  Most importantly, though, Lockwood’s book introduced me to Bertrand Russell’s later views on these issues, which would have a major influence on my thinking ever afterward.  Russell emphasized that physics really gives us very little knowledge of the material world.  In particular, it gives us knowledge of its abstract structure, of what can be captured in equations and the like.  But it gives us no knowledge of the intrinsic nature of matter, of the concrete reality that fleshes out the abstract structure.  Introspection, by contrast, gives us direct knowledge of our thoughts and experiences.  The upshot is that it is matter, and not mind, that is the really problematic side of the mind-body problem.  

This was truly revolutionary, and it reinforced the conclusion that contemporary materialism was shallow and dogmatic.  And that Lockwood and Russell were themselves naturalists made it once again easy to accept the message.  I got hold of whatever I could find on these neglected views of Russell’s -- Russell’s The Analysis of Matter and various essays and book chapters, Lockwood’s other writings on the topic, some terrific neglected essays by Grover Maxwell, some related arguments from John Foster and Howard Robinson.  David Chalmers and Galen Strawson were also starting to take an interest in Russell around that time.  But once again I found myself agreeing more with the criticisms than with the positive proposals.  Russell took the view that what fleshes out the structure described by physics were sense data (more or less what contemporary writers call qualia).  This might seem to entail a kind of panpsychism, the view that mental properties are everywhere in nature.  Russell avoided this bizarre result by arguing that sense data could exist apart from a conscious subject which was aware of them, and Lockwood took the same line.  I wasn’t convinced, and one of my earliest published articles was a criticism of Lockwood’s arguments on this subject (an article to which Lockwood very graciously replied).  Chalmers and Strawson, meanwhile, were flirting with the idea of just accepting the panpsychist tendency of Russell’s positive views, but that seemed crazy to me.

My preferred solution was to take the negative, critical side of the Russellian position -- the view that physics gives us knowledge only of the abstract structure of matter -- and push a similar line toward the mind itself.  All our knowledge, both of the external world described by physics and of the internal world of conscious experience and thought, was knowledge only of structure, of the relations between elements but not of their intrinsic nature.  I would discover that Rudolf Carnap had taken something in the ballpark of this position, but the main influence on my thinking here was, of all people, the economist and political philosopher F. A. Hayek.  The libertarianism I was then attracted to had already led me to take an interest in Hayek.  When I found out that he had written a book on the mind-body problem, and that it took a position like Russell’s only more radical, it seemed like kismet.  Hayek’s The Sensory Order and some of his related essays would come to be the major influences on my positive views.  

But they were inchoate, since Hayek was not a philosopher by profession.  That gave me something to do.  Working out Hayek’s position in a more systematic way than he had done would be the project of my doctoral dissertation, “Russell, Hayek, and the Mind-Body Problem.”  (Both here and in the earlier Master’s thesis link, by the way, Google books overstates the page count.  I wasn’t that long-winded!)  This was, to be sure, a very eccentric topic for a dissertation.  Russell’s views were marginal at the time, and are still not widely accepted.  Probably very few philosophers of mind even know who Hayek is, and fewer still care.  But I thought their views were both true and interesting, and that was that.  (If you want advice on how to climb the career ladder in academic philosophy, I’m not the guy to ask.  But you knew that already.)  

Spelling out the Hayekian position in a satisfactory way was very difficult.  Lockwood had presented Russell’s position as a kind of mind-brain identity theory in reverse: It’s not that the mind turns out to be the brain, but that the brain turns out to be the mind.  More precisely, visual and tactile perceptions of the brain of the sort a neurosurgeon might have do not tell us what the brain is really like, but present us only with a representation of the brain.  It is actually introspection of our own mental states that tells us the inner nature of the matter that makes up the brain.  It seemed to me that Hayek’s position amounted to something like functionalism in reverse:  It’s not that the mind turns out to be a kind of causal network of the sort that might be instantiated in the brain, or a computer, or some other material system -- understood naively, i.e. taking our perceptual experience of these physical systems as accurate representations of their intrinsic nature.  Rather, introspection of our mental states and their relations is actually a kind of direct awareness of the inner nature of causation itself.  We shouldn’t reduce mind to causal relations; rather we should inflate our notion of causation and see in it the mental properties we know from introspection.

So I then argued, and wrote up the results both in the dissertation and in another article.  But the views were weird, required a great deal of abstractive effort even to understand, and one had to care about Hayek even to try, which almost no philosophers of mind do.  To be sure, Searle was interested in Hayek in a general way -- when Steven Postrel and I interviewed him for Reason, and when I talked to him about Hayek on other occasions, he even expressed interest in The Sensory Order in particular -- but this interest never manifested itself in his published work.  Chalmers very kindly gave me lots of feedback on the Hayekian spin on Russell that I was trying to develop, and pushed me to clarify the underlying metaphysics.  But his own tendency was, as I have said, to explore (at least tentatively) the panpsychist reading of Russell.

And yet my own development of Hayek might itself seem ultimately to have flirted with panpsychism.  For if introspection of our mental states gives us awareness of the inner nature of causation, doesn’t that imply that causation itself -- including causation in the world outside the brain -- is in some sense mental?  This certainly went beyond anything Hayek himself had said.  In my later thinking about Hayek’s position (of which I would give a more adequate exposition in my Cambridge Companion to Hayek article on Hayek’s philosophy of mind), I would retreat from this reading and emphasize instead the idea that introspection and perception give us only representations of the inner and outer worlds, and not their intrinsic nature.

This, for reasons I spell out in the article just referred to, offers a possible solution to the problem that qualia pose for naturalism.  But because the view presupposes the notion of representation, it does not account for intentionality.  Here my inclinations went in more of a “mysterian” direction.  I had long been fascinated by Colin McGinn’s arguments to the effect that there was a perfectly naturalistic explanation of consciousness, but one we may be incapable in principle of understanding given the limitations on our cognitive faculties.  I thought we could say more about consciousness than McGinn thought we probably could, but I also came to think that his mysterian approach was correct vis-à-vis the intentional content of our mental states.  Lockwood and Hayek said things that lent plausibility to this.  

I would later largely abandon the Hayekian position altogether, because it presupposes an indirect realist account of perception that I would eventually reject.  (That took some time.  The influence of indirect realism is clearly evident in my book Philosophy of Mind.)  But I had come to some conclusions in the philosophy of mind that would persist.  First, as Russell had argued, physics, which materialists take to be the gold standard of our knowledge of the material world, in fact doesn’t give us knowledge of the intrinsic nature of matter in the first place.  The usual materialist theories were not even clearly thought out, much less correct.  Second, a complete naturalistic explanation of intentionality is impossible.  

But I was still a naturalist.  It was also while still a naturalist that I first started to take a serious interest in Aristotelianism, though at the time that interest had to do with ethics rather than metaphysics.   Even before I became an atheist I had been introduced to the Aristotelian idea that what is good for us is determined by our nature, and that our nature is what it is whether or not we think of it as having come from God.  After becoming an atheist, then, I became drawn to ethicists like Philippa Foot, who defended a broadly Aristotelian approach to the subject from a secular point of view.  Her book Virtues and Vices and Alasdair MacIntyre’s After Virtue were the big influences on my thinking about ethical theory during my atheist years.  

One consequence of this was that I always took teleology seriously, because it was so clearly evident a feature of ordinary practical reasoning.  (How did I reconcile this with naturalism?  I’m not sure I then saw the conflict all that clearly.  But in any event I thought that teleological notions could be fitted into a naturalistic framework in the standard, broadly Darwinian way -- the function of a thing is to be cashed out in terms of the reason why it was selected, etc.  I only later came to see that teleology ultimately had to be a bottom level feature of the world rather than a derivative one.)

After Virtue also taught me another important lesson -- that a set of concepts could become hopelessly confused and lead to paradox when yanked from the original context which gave them their intelligibility.  MacIntyre argued that this is what had happened to the key concepts of modern moral theory, removed as they had been from the pre-modern framework that was their original home.  I would later come to see that the same thing is true in metaphysics -- that the metaphysical categories contemporary philosophers make casual use of (causation, substance, essence, mind, matter, and so forth) have been grotesquely distorted in modern philosophy, pulled as they have been from the classical (and especially Aristotelian-Scholastic) framework in which they had been so carefully refined.  As I argue in The Last Superstition, many of the so-called “traditional” problems of philosophy are really just artifacts of the anti-Scholastic revolution of the moderns.  They flow from highly contentious and historically contingent metaphysical assumptions, and do not reflect anything about the nature of philosophical reflection per se.  And the standard moves of modern atheist argumentation typically presuppose these same assumptions.  But I wouldn’t see that for years.

I was on my way to seeing it, however.  Several crucial background elements were in place by the late 90s.  Fregean and related arguments had gotten me to take very seriously the idea that something like Platonic realism might be true.  (I would later see that Aristotelian realism was in fact the right way to go, but the basic anti-naturalistic move had been made.)  The arguments of Searle and others had shown that existing versions of materialism were no good.  Russellian arguments had shown that modern science and philosophy had no clear idea of what matter was in the first place.  Whatever it was supposed to be, though, it seemed it was not something to which one could assimilate mind, at least not if one wanted to avoid panpsychism.  Naturalism came to seem mysterious at best.  Meanwhile, Aristotelian ideas had a certain plausibility.  All that was needed was some systematic alternative to naturalism.

Then, in the late 90s, while still a grad student, I was given an opportunity to teach a philosophy of religion course, followed by several opportunities to teach “intro to philosophy” courses.  In the latter, I wanted to focus on topics that would be of interest to undergrads who might have no general interest in philosophy.  Since everyone had some interest in religion (even if only, in some cases, a hostile interest), arguments for God’s existence seemed a good topic for at least part of the course.  Naturally, that was a topic for the philosophy of religion course too.  So, I had a reason to revisit the subject after having given it relatively little thought for many years.

At first I taught the material the way so many professors do: Here are the arguments; here are the obvious fallacies they commit; let’s move on.  I never came across like Richard Dawkins, but I no doubt did come across like Nigel Warburton (say): politely dismissive.  And, as I gradually came to see, totally ill-informed.  The “line ‘em up, then shoot ‘em down” approach was boring, and the arguments seemed obviously stupid.  Yet the people who had presented them historically were obviously not stupid.  So, it seemed to me that it would be interesting to try to give the arguments a run for their money, and to try to make it understandable to the students why anyone would ever have accepted them.

So I started to read and think more about them.  I came to find William Rowe’s approach to the Leibnizian sort of cosmological argument interesting and pedagogically useful.  He didn’t seem to accept the argument, but he made it clear that asking “What caused God?”, “How do we know the universe had a beginning?”, etc. weren’t really serious objections.  He also made it clear that the thrust of the argument had to do with what was a straightforward and undeniably serious philosophical question:  Should we regard the world as ultimately explicable or not?  If not, then the argument fails.  But if so, then it does seem to make it plausible that something like God, or at least the God of the philosophers, must exist.  And it didn’t seem silly to wonder whether there might be such an explanation.  Richard Taylor’s clear, punchy chapter on natural theology in his little book Metaphysics made the same point, and made for a useful selection for the students to read.  

Naturally, I had already long been aware of this sort of argument.  The difference was that when I had first thought about it years before I was approaching it as someone who had had a religious background and wanted to see whether there was any argument for God’s existence that was really persuasive.  Russell’s retort to Copleston, to the effect that we can always insist that the universe is just there and that’s that, had then seemed to me sufficient to show that the argument was simply not compelling.  We’re just not rationally forced to accept it.  I had, as it were, put the argument on trial and it had been unable to establish its innocence to my satisfaction.  But now I was approaching it as a naturalist who was trying to give my students a reason to see the argument as something at least worth thinking about for a class period or two.  I was playing defense attorney rather than prosecution, but a defense attorney with the confidence of someone who didn’t have a stake in his client’s acquittal.  Already being a confirmed naturalist, I could be dispassionate rather than argumentative, and could treat the whole thing as a philosophical exercise.  

And from that point of view it started to seem that Russell’s reply, while it had rhetorical power, was perhaps not quite airtight philosophically.  Sure, you could always say that there’s no ultimate explanation.  And maybe there’s no way to prove otherwise.  But is it really true?  Is it really even more plausible to think that than to think that there is an explanation?  Guys like Rowe and Taylor, by no means religious fanatics or apologists but just philosophers entertaining a deep question, seemed to take the question pretty seriously.  Interesting, I thought.  Though for the time being, “interesting” -- rather than correct or persuasive -- was all I found it.  

Then there was Aquinas.  At the high tide of my undergrad Brash Young Atheist stage, I had taken a class on medieval philosophy with the late John Cronquist, an atheist professor at Cal State Fullerton who was absolutely contemptuous of Christianity.  Campus apologists of the Protestant stripe were a frequent target of his ire, though he had a choice quip or two about Catholicism as well.  He was one of the smartest and most well-read people I have ever known -- the kind of guy you find intellectually intimidating and hope not to get in an argument with -- and I liked him very much.  One of the odd and interesting things about that course, though, was how respectfully Cronquist treated some of the medievals, especially Aquinas.  He said that compared to them, contemporary pop apologists were “like a pimple on the ass of an athlete.”  (I remember him dramatically pointing to his own posterior as he said this, for emphasis.)  He obviously didn’t buy the Scholastic system for a moment, but he treated the material as worth taking a semester to try to understand.  And he said a couple of things that stood out.  First, for reasons I don’t recall him elaborating on much, he seemed to think that the Third Way in particular might have something to be said for it.  Second, he said that the mind-body problem, which he seemed to think was terribly vexing, really boiled down to the problem of universals.  For years I would wonder what he meant by that.  (I now think it must have had to do with the way our grasp of abstract concepts features in Aristotelian arguments for the immateriality of the intellect.) 

At the time I filed these remarks away as curiosities (just as I had then regarded the material we covered in the class as mere curiosities).  But I think his example made it easier for me, years later, to take a second look at Aquinas as I prepared course material.  I look back at my first lectures on the Five Ways with extreme embarrassment.  If you’d heard them, you’d have thought I was cribbing from an advance copy of The God Delusion, if not in tone then at least in the substance of my criticisms.  But that started slowly to change as I read more about the arguments and began to work the material into my lectures.  A good friend of mine, who had also gone from Catholicism to atheism and was a fellow grad student, was familiar with William Lane Craig’s book The Cosmological Argument from Plato to Leibniz, and seemed to find it useful in preparing his own lectures on the subject.  Our discussions of the arguments were very helpful.  Furthermore, Atheism and Theism by J. J. C. Smart and John Haldane had recently appeared, with Haldane defending, and Smart treating respectfully, some old-fashioned Thomistic arguments for the existence of God.  Such materials opened up a new world.  The way I and so many other philosophers tended to read the Five Ways was, as I gradually came to realize, laughably off base.  

The immediate effect was that I found a way to teach the Five Ways without seeming like I was putting fish in a barrel for the students to shoot at.  I still didn’t agree with the arguments, but at least teaching them was getting interesting.  I recall one class period when, having done my best to try to defend some argument (the First Way, I think) against various objections, I finally stated whatever it was I thought at the time was a difficulty that hadn’t been satisfactorily answered.  One of my smartest students expressed relief: She had been worried for a moment that there might be a good argument for God’s existence after all!  (Anyone who thinks wishful thinking is all on the side of religious people is fooling himself.)  

None of this undermined my commitment to naturalism for some time.  I published my first several journal articles while still in grad school, and two of them were criticisms of the doctrine of the Trinity.  (I’m now a staunch Trinitarian, of course.  But once again, it turns out that I still more or less agree with the arguments I then presented.  The versions of Trinitarianism I then attacked are, I continue to think, wrong.  But Trinitarianism itself is true.)  

But the language of act and potency, per se and per accidens causal series and the like started to enter my lectures on Aquinas, and before long, my thinking.  It was all very strange.  Aquinas’s arguments had a certain power when all of this metaphysical background was taken account of.  And there was a certain plausibility to the metaphysics.  There were reasons for distinguishing between actuality and potentiality, the different kinds of causal series, and so forth.   Yet no one seemed to talk that way anymore -- or, again, at least no one “mainstream.”  Could there really be anything to it all if contemporary philosophers weren’t saying anything about it?  And yet, precisely because they weren’t talking about it, they weren’t refuting it either.  Indeed, when they did say anything about Aquinas’s arguments at all, most of them showed only that they couldn’t even be bothered to get him right, much less show why he was mistaken.  Arguments from current philosophical fashion are bad enough.  But when most philosophers not only do not accept a certain view, but demonstrate that they don’t even understand what it is, things can start to smell very fishy indeed.

And so they did.  I already knew from the lay of the land in the philosophy of language and philosophy of mind that the standard naturalist approaches had no solid intellectual foundation, and themselves rested as much on fashion as on anything else.  Even writers like Searle, who I admired greatly and whose naturalism I shared, had no plausible positive alternative.  McGinn-style mysterianism started to seem like a dodge, especially given that certain arguments (like the Platonic realist ones) seemed to show that matter simply is not in fact all that there is, not merely that we can’t know how it can be all that there is.  Some secular writers were even toying with Aristotelian ideas anyway.  The only reason for not taking Aquinas and similar thinkers seriously seemed to be that most other academic philosophers weren’t taking them seriously.  And yet as I had come to learn, many of them didn’t even understand Aquinas and Co. in the first place, and their own naturalism was riddled with problems.  Against Aquinas, for naturalism -- the case increasingly seemed to come down to the consensus of the profession.  And what exactly was that worth?  

It isn’t worth a damn thing, of course.  Careerists might not see that, nor might a young man more excited by the “question what your parents taught you” side of philosophy than all that “objective pursuit of truth” stuff.  But a grownup will see it, and a philosopher had sure as hell better see it.  

I don’t know exactly when everything clicked.  There was no single event, but a gradual transformation.  As I taught and thought about the arguments for God’s existence, and in particular the cosmological argument, I went from thinking “These arguments are no good” to thinking “These arguments are a little better than they are given credit for” and then to “These arguments are actually kind of interesting.”  Eventually it hit me: “Oh my goodness, these arguments are right after all!”  By the summer of 2001 I would find myself trying to argue my wife’s skeptical physicist brother-in-law into philosophical theism on the train the four of us were taking through eastern Europe.

There’s more to the story than that, of course.  In particular, it would take an essay of its own to explain why I returned to the Catholic Church, specifically, as I would by the end of 2001.  But I can already hear some readers protesting at what I have said.  I don’t mean the New Atheist types, always on the hunt for some ad hominem nugget that will excuse them from having to take the actual arguments of the other side seriously.  (God Himself could come down from on high and put before such people an airtight ontological proof of His existence while parting the Red Sea, and they’d still insist that what really motivated these arguments was a desire to rationalize His moral prejudices.  And that their own continued disbelief was just a matter of, you know, following the evidence where it leads.)  

No, I’m talking about a certain kind of religious believer, the type who’s always going on about how faith is really a matter of the heart rather than the head, that no one’s ever been argued into religion, etc.  It will be said by such a believer that my change of view was too rationalistic, too cerebral, too bloodless, too focused on a theoretical knowledge of the God of the philosophers rather than a personal response to the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

But the dichotomy is a false one, and the implied conception of the relationship between faith and reason not only foolish but heterodox.  As to the heterodoxy and foolishness of fideism, and the correct understanding of the relationship of faith and reason, I have addressed that set of issues in a previous post.  As to the “heart versus head” stuff, it seems to me to rest on an erroneous bifurcation of human nature.  Man is a unity, his rationality and animality, intellect and passions, theoretical and moral lives all ultimately oriented toward the same end.  That is why even a pagan like Aristotle knew that our happiness lay in “the contemplation and service of God,” whose existence he knew of via philosophical argumentation.  That is why Plotinus could know that we “forget the father, God” because of “self-will.”  While the pagan may have no access to the supernatural end that only grace makes possible, he is still capable of a natural knowledge of God, and will naturally tend to love what he knows.  

As Plotinus’s remark indicates, that does not mean that the will does not have a role to play.  But that is true wherever reason leads us to a conclusion we might not like, not merely in matters of religion.  And once you have allowed yourself to see the truth that reason leads you to, what reason apprehends is (given the convertibility of the transcendentals) as good and beautiful as it is real.  If you find yourself intellectually convinced that there is a divine Uncaused Cause who sustains the world and you in being at every instant, and don’t find this conclusion extremely strange and moving, something that leads you to a kind of reverence, then I daresay you haven’t understood it.  Of course, there are those whose heads and hearts are so out of sync that they cannot follow both at the same time.  But we shouldn’t mistake this pathology for an insight into human nature.

Speaking for myself, anyway, I can say this much.  When I was an undergrad I came across the saying that learning a little philosophy leads you away from God, but learning a lot of philosophy leads you back.  As a young man who had learned a little philosophy, I scoffed.  But in later years and at least in my own case, I would come to see that it’s true.

298 comments:

  1. Ahh, well OK, but that's a point I've come to be repeating just as frequently here, I'd say. The "rightness" is hung on the metaphysical axiom of the (generally) veridical quality of our sensory experience. If it's taken as an axiom -- remember, an axiom isn't an axiom if you justify it, it's deployed out of necessity for the enterprise -- then a separate system, what we call a "model" that mirrors and predicts the system of nature (our extra-mental reality) provides an index for the "rightness", the veridicality of the models we maintain as isomorphisms for the world at the other end of our senses.

    Yes, we've been here before and unfortunately the conversation has ended just as we got to the critical questions. Which is how you know the reality against which you are testing science.

    I think it requires a lot more than what you are allowing under "sensorty experience." We've talked before about the familiar experiment of rolling a ball down an incliine. For this experiment to be possible, we've got to assume some things, for example:

    That the ball at the start of the experiment (which we sense at t1 and point p1) is the same ball with the same properties at the end of the experiment (which we sense at t2,p2). Are you saying these transpatial and transtemporal associations are things we directly sense? If not, how do we know them?

    In general, I'm not sure what you count and don't count as "extra-mental reality." Your last sentence seems to imply it is the "system of nature", which I don't think you hold we directly sense. But you hold sensory experience to be veridical, which I take to mean that it is in direct contact with extra-mental reality, so now I'm not sure. In your example of the flame on your hand, are you saying cigarette lighters and flames are extra-mental realities we directly sense, or that we only sense heat, light and sound?

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  2. @Daniel Smith

    You started this. Remember that.

    >BenYachov: First let me just remind you there is no Salvation Outside the Catholic Church.

    I reply: A statement I made to George R who is a sedevecantist(look it up) pseudo traditionalist "Catholic" I wasn't talking to you buddy! So you are out of line inserting yourself where you have no business.

    Especially since it was you who first threw around accusations(believing in salvation in an institution & not Christ. Not believing in the sufficiency of Christ etc) and making judgments that I believed all none Catholics are damned & ignoring my explanations.

    >>I don't believe all non-Catholics are automatically damned because that is the teaching of the Church.

    >How does "I don't believe all non-Catholics are automatically damned" square with "there is no Salvation Outside the Catholic Church"? Does the Church really teach that there is no salvation apart from it AND that - apart from it - you can be saved?

    >?Or are you just blowing smoke?

    I reply: The others have cited Church documents explaining it & I agree with them 100%. No doubt you will choose to ignore what they wrote. But I will explain it to you and use small words.

    Pay attention!

    There is no Salvation Outside the Catholic Church therefore any "non-Catholics" who are saved must in some manner be part of the Catholic Church if even in spirit(in fact it was St Pius X who uses the phrase "part of the soul of the Church" to explain the possible salvation of invincibly ignorant Protestants).

    Invincibly Ignorant(i.e. those who don't know the full truth threw no fault of their own) non-Catholics who follow the light Christ gives them can be saved.

    However the vincibly ignorant(those who could know but refuse to find out out of sinful malice toward truth) and those who know yet still spurn the truth & thus refuse to confess Christ and join His Church will not be saved!

    George R. is a sedevecantist. A Protestant is maybe 80% correct in his doctrine. A Sede is about 98% (he rejects Vatican II and the Papacy of Benedict XVI). Thus there is good reason to believe George might not be able to plead invincible ignorance since he in theory accepts Vatican One & the dogmas of Papal Infalliblity and Indefectablity but inconsistantly rejects the authority of Benedict.

    So every time I address him I make it a point to tell him he needs to return to the Church & stop this Benedict isn't the real Pope nonsense.

    Recient schismatics aren't the same as those born heretics and schmatics. As Augustine said the children of heretics are not true heretics but faithfully observing what they recieved in error threw no fault of their own.

    >>BenYachov: You are a big hypocrite.

    >Prove it!

    You started this with the wild accusations of Salvation according to human institutions because Christ isn't sufficient and implying I believe all non-Catholics are not saved.

    I wasn't even talking to you. Wow I thougth I had an ego!

    Sheesh!

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  3. Glenn posted this so Daniel has no excuse to misrepresent me.


    1. "Outside the Church there is no salvation"

    http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P29.HTM

    846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body[.]

    [However,]

    847 This affirmation [of "Outside the Church there is no salvation"] is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

    Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience--those too may achieve eternal salvation.

    2. Dogmatic Constitution On The Church, LUMEN GENTIUM, Solemnly Promulgated By His Holiness Pope Paul VI On November 21, 1964

    16. ...Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience. Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life. Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel. She knows that it is given by Him who enlightens all men so that they may finally have life...

    I reply: Amen!!!!!!

    You don't have to be a Feeneyite to believe in EENS.

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  4. David T,

    "I think it requires a lot more than what you are allowing under "sensorty experience."

    i think you're right here. in addition to the examples you gave, consider 'potentiality' itself. if it isn't a real feature of extra-mental reality, motion is impossible. but if it is such a feature, it is surely not a sensory datum. therefore, materialism if false.

    what do you think?

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  5. dd,

    You didn't have to quote my spelling error! Just kidding.

    I think you are right, and there are plenty more examples where that came from. Hume and Kant put paid to the naive notion that science can be founded on a simple reading off of sensory experience a few centuries ago.

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  6. Ben Yachov,

    Your general lack of charity when dealing with other Christians (Catholic or Protestant) is astonishing.

    Regardless of whether or not George R. is correct about the 2nd law (I actually agree with you, Rank Sophist and others on this), you introduced him as being a Protestant, called him to repent etc. as a red herring - it had nothing to do with the argument at hand. Daniel sees this post, and understandingly reacts (over-reacts? I'm not so sure) to a statement taken out of context. Yes we understand your beliefs fall in line with the Catholic catechism which effectively states that salvation is possible for Christians who are not part of the Catholic church (with qualification provided by Glenn and others). But if Daniel is not familiar with your particular beliefs on the matter, how else should he interpret the comment? Perhaps you would say Daniel should interpret your remarks in light of official Catholic doctrine. Of course, I'm presuming Daniel is protestant, and thus not likely to understand the finer points of said doctrine. Then why not just kindly correct him? If you were just having fun with George R, or this is some kind of running gag where you point out that he's a heretic or something, I can't say. I'm not aware of the history there. You ought to be more careful with your words.

    Look, I generally agree with the content of your posts when you stick to philosophy, and keep the personal remarks out of it; the moment something like the above happens, however, I find myself wishing you would refrain from posting at all.

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  7. @jhall

    >Your general lack of charity when dealing with other Christians (Catholic or Protestant) is astonishing.

    Really? Who said "If you're really saying those things - then you're a religious bigot.">

    That I believe was Daniel. I wasn't speaking to him. I was speaking to George.

    >Regardless of whether or not George R. is correct....you introduced him as being a Protestant, called him to repent etc. as a red herring - it had nothing to do with the argument at hand.

    Read what I wrote. I said to George R.

    QUOTE"First let me just remind you there is no Salvation Outside the Catholic Church and running around claiming Pope Benedict isn't the real Pope puts your soul in mortal danger.

    Repent & return to the True Church.

    Just saying."END QUOTE

    I didn't call him a Protestant(at least in this post). I didn't bring up Protestants. I doubt there is a Protestant on Earth who claims Benedict isn't the real Pope anymore then I claim the Dali Lama isn't the real Dali Lama. He merely denies the authority of the Pope. Big difference!

    >Daniel sees this post, and understandingly reacts (over-reacts? I'm not so sure) to a statement taken out of context.

    No he doesn't! I have just now been reading his posts he has been spoiling for a fight with someone over Catholic vs Protestant issues. It started with his canard about praying to saints being "unbiblical". People here blew him off. Told him to go read Currie's book & I myself ignored him. So it's on him not me.

    Hey I am aggressive & yes maybe I should tone it down a bit. But if you come at me aggressively (i.e. your a bigot!) don't look surprised if I hit back.

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  8. BTW jhall it's a Catholic blog.

    If Daniel doesn't know orthodox Catholic Lingo & doesn't know any Catholicism beyond the lame cultural Catholicism he and the unwashed masses didn't learn at Mass it is incumbent on Daniel to learn before he speaks.

    And if he wants to interject himself between me an George at least make it about the topic between us. The 2nd Law vs Evolution.

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  9. The equivocation between 'law' as prescriptive (theological/teleocentric sense) and 'law' as descriptive (scientific sense) is just a persistent problem that won't go away so long as their is a casual interface between the two concepts, theology and science bumping into each other.

    There is almost no difference between prescriptive and descriptive law in the way that you're using the word. Our universe behaves according to certain unbreakable laws that apply everywhere. The only change you've made is that the laws are unexplained and inexplicable. Then we get into foolishness like the "fine-tuning argument".

    You have only two options, here. Either stick with an incomplete version of the theological "law" system or admit that laws are, in fact, abstractions. To quote Feser quoting Schrödinger in a past blog post,

    Scientific theories serve to facilitate the survey of our observations and experimental findings. Every scientist knows how difficult it is to remember a moderately extended group of facts, before at least some primitive theoretical picture about them has been shaped. It is therefore small wonder, and by no means to be blamed on the authors of original papers or of text-books, that after a reasonably coherent theory has been formed, they do not describe the bare facts they have found or wish to convey to the reader, but clothe them in the terminology of that theory or theories. This procedure, while very useful for our remembering the facts in a well-ordered pattern, tends to obliterate the distinction between the actual observations and the theory arisen from them.

    The idea of "laws" confuses the map for the territory.

    "Provable" is a problematic term in science. Scientific epistemology is eliminative, which means we don't acquire knowledge in the "it is proven" sense, but rather we eliminate less performative hypotheses and models, adopting the "least problematic and least falsified" as our current champion representing current knowledge.

    I'm familiar with falsificationism. Unfortunately, as many philosophers (such as Feyerabend) have said, Popper's system does not represent actual scientific practice--and it runs the risk of limiting it. It sounds good in a debate, sure; but I'm criticizing the use of laws for real science.

    As it stands, scientists and most philosophers of science understand science as a search for evidence to prove hypotheses. This is the standard operating model for much of theoretical physics, for instance. String theory is largely unfalsifiable, and yet it is considered "real science". We "prove" things and get nearer and nearer to a "complete" picture of the universe. Falsifiability reduces scientific practice to skeptical pragmatism.

    According to standard science, universal laws are completely unprovable. Falsifiable? Sometimes. The Second Law isn't, though. Neither is the principle of the conservation of energy. Guess they aren't "real science"--so perhaps we should chuck them out.

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  10. Well, the basis is experience, for Aristotle and myself (and you, and...), yes. But "form" is a linguistic construct, a façon de parler in that context, and doesn't venture or add anything. If you doubt this, note that "form" is conspicuously absent from *any* model that interacts with our experience, and isn't liable to it in the least.

    What is that even supposed to mean? Because no one speaks in terms of form, I should believe that it's false and unnecessary?

    A form is neither a linguistic construct nor an unnecessary complicaton. For example, the form of a fish is "a water-dwelling vertebrate with gills"--hardly complicated. Plus, thanks to the Porphyrian Tree, we know that there is a necessary connection between the genus "vertebrate" and the genus "animal". Further, there is a necessary connection between the genus "animal" and the genus "material" (or "bodily"). In this way, we see how the Second Law, which we have learned applies to material things, is a necessary part of the form of every material thing. Can a law-based system answer this question? No. It can merely generalize and project observations.

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  11. It is, and this is a damning shortcoming. It's a trivial approach to the problem, "philosophy by definition". The notion of form is perfectly unfalsifiable, even and especially in practical terms, precisely so that it can be and is conducive to ANY and ALL empirical outcomes.

    Guess what else is unfalsifiable?

    It's not a synthetic concept, to cast it in Kantian terms, but is instead tautological, and tautologies are by nature much more conducive in such situations because they are trivial truths, definitions.

    The idea that form is tautologous has been refuted by pretty much every contemporary Aristotelian. It's a myth created by the uneducated during the Enlightenment. My above example should suffice to explain why form is not a tautology.

    The superability of the problems of induction -- we anticipate the sun rising tomorrow just as it has for a million days in a row before, without any deductive grounds for doing so, and "get away with it" to our own utilitarian ends! -- is not Goodman's contribution. If you boil away the question that Goodman laid on top of inductive indeterminacy (the "grue" particulars), you have in residue the same problems Hume and others identified long before. That doesn't mean Goodman isn't an interesting contributor here, but he's not an innovator on the problem of induction, but on other issues.

    His idea still renders any kind of contemporary, induction-based science impossible. Every scientific prediction is equally viable--equally supported by the evidence. It makes laws incoherent in principle, because they could be construed in millions of different ways. Forms, on the other hand, are immune to grue. They're very similar to (but better than) the "natural kinds" used by certain contemporary essentialists to escape Goodman's paradox. Fish are water-dwelling vertebrates with gills--not "water dwelling vertebrates with gills if observed before time t and water-dwelling vertebrates without gills otherwise". We know this because the necessary connections within forms preclude these kinds of theories. A "grue-ified" fish would not be a fish at all.

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  12. BenYachov: You started this. Remember that.

    How old are you, 5?

    So you are out of line inserting yourself where you have no business.

    You posted it publicly, so it's anyone's business. If you want to have private conversations then have them privately. Really, we promise we won't mind.

    But I will explain it to you and use small words. Pay attention!

    Don't be a jerk.

    So every time I address him I make it a point to tell him he needs to return to the Church & stop this Benedict isn't the real Pope nonsense.

    Which probably just drives him further away. Is that what you want?

    Hey I am aggressive & yes maybe I should tone it down a bit. But if you come at me aggressively (i.e. your a bigot!) don't look surprised if I hit back.

    You think two wrongs make a right? You really ought to learn some Thomism. Come back to the real Catholic Church, Ben. Of course you should tone it down, no "maybe". Especially since nobody actually called you a bigot.

    BTW jhall it's a Catholic blog.

    No, it's an Ed Feser blog. It's about whatever Ed wants, which happens to be philosophy. You don't have to be a Catholic to read it, you don't have to be a Catholic to comment on it, you don't have to talk about Catholicism when you post. If somebody has a question or misunderstanding about Catholic teaching, the right thing to do is to post a respectful reply with the relevant info, as several other people did. This isn't hard.

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  13. I see the trolls are trying to fan the flames.

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  14. I'd rather read RS vs Touchstone.

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  15. BenYachov,

    1) I said "if you're really saying those things then you're a religious bigot". The proper answer would be "No, I'm not really saying those things" ...NOT... "Wanna fight punk!" [paraphrasing]

    2) I was raised a Catholic, but never got familiar enough with Catholic doctrines to know the ins and outs of the issues I've raised here. This business about "the church being the body of Christ" I can agree with except when they define "the church" exclusively as "the Catholic denomination" - to the exclusion of all others who believe in Jesus (if that's what they're actually doing).

    3) Unfortunately, you represent Catholicism to me. And, given that "you'll know them by their fruits", I'm even less likely to return now than ever. Just sayin'

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  16. "God made human beings with dirty finger nails, bad breath, and nasty digestive systems, especially when humanity was encumbered with a lack of toilet paper and decent plumbing. And he also allowed innocent animals to ravage each other and suffer disease and disaster for millions of years before humanity ever came on the scene. This implies, inescapably, that God has a twisted sense of humor, in which case God has a deficiency, in which case God does not exist.

    QED."


    Bartholomew, that demonstration was beautiful, succinct, and compelling. Thank you.

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  17. @Daniel Smith

    There are a host of Catholic Apologetics websites. Why aren't you arguing your blather there?


    >1) I said "if you're really saying those things then you're a religious bigot". The proper answer would be "No, I'm not really saying those things" ...NOT... "Wanna fight punk!" [paraphrasing]

    You came out of left field, attacked Church doctrine and called me a bigot.

    Nuff said!

    Besides this is a philosophy forum! What's with the Protestant polemics?
    What you never heard of Catholic Answers or David Armstrong's blog? Or Envoy?

    Go fight with them. It's what they live for God love them.

    >2) I was raised a Catholic, but never got familiar enough with Catholic doctrines to know the ins and outs of the issues I've raised here. This business about "the church being the body of Christ" I can agree with except when they define "the church" exclusively as "the Catholic denomination" - to the exclusion of all others who believe in Jesus (if that's what they're actually doing).

    So you can comprehend Jesus as the only savior? Christianity the only truth but it escapes you the idea Jesus founded only one Christian "denomination"? Seriously?

    Do you believe no Church is the correct one? They are all wrong? None of them has the full truth? Bullshit! My God is too powerful for that! So was Jesus blowing smoke when he said he would send us the Holy Spirit to lead us in all truth and then turns around and does not do that?

    I think not.

    >3) Unfortunately, you represent Catholicism to me. And, given that "you'll know them by their fruits", I'm even less likely to return now than ever. Just sayin'

    Don't use that petty emotional blackmail on me! I'm not your preacher, Bishop or Father confessor. I hang out with Catholics, Jews, Messianic Jews and Hebrew Catholics! Your feeble guilt powers won't work on me amateur.

    The other posters here gave you the titles of various books go read them or stomp your foot like BeingItself, djindra or one of the other Gnus declare you know it all & keep going on fat dumb and happy.

    Or you can challenge yourself with something new. I don't care what you do I have my own problems to deal with.

    Now ENOUGH!!!! Maybe I shouldn't have bitten your head off but you are no innocent here either buddy.

    RS and Touchstone are having a good discussion. I want to read it.

    ENOUGH of you and I sucking up the oxygen!!!!!

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  18. @rank sophist,

    There is almost no difference between prescriptive and descriptive law in the way that you're using the word. Our universe behaves according to certain unbreakable laws that apply everywhere. The only change you've made is that the laws are unexplained and inexplicable. Then we get into foolishness like the "fine-tuning argument".

    Hey, I'm enjoying the discourse here, but noting that I'm conflicted. This is interesting, but we're WAY off in left field with respect to the OP and thread subject here. Not a problem, necessarily, but it makes this combox messy, eh?

    On the laws, that may be the "only" change, that change is a doozy. "Unexplained" has profound ramifications over "given by a law-giver". Huge ramifications.

    I wouldn't say our physical laws are inexplicable, if by that you mean they can't be further explained, even in principle, in terms of more fundamental, unifying "meta-laws". I'm quite open to that possibility. But while progress can be made in terms of "more fundamental fundamentals", that just leaves a new set of fundamentals as the brute facts of nature, and they are the new "unexplained".

    You have only two options, here. Either stick with an incomplete version of the theological "law" system or admit that laws are, in fact, abstractions. To quote Feser quoting Schrödinger in a past blog post,
    [quote elided]

    The idea of "laws" confuses the map for the territory.

    That is certainly a persistent hazard. But with some care, it's quite possible to keep separate the concept, the abstraction we point to with the term "law" (the map), and the *subject* of that concept, the referent that is the physical dynamic in nature that the concept points at (the territory).

    I don't see the problem in "laws" -- the map, the concept -- as abstractions. Of course they are, what else could they be? So I suspect you mean something else by "abstractions", like "immaterial thing", or some such. Is that the case? Laws are just descriptions of general principles (map, conceptual) that we understand to be isomorphic to physical dynamics in nature (territory, extra-mental reality), which, when they are fundamental, have no deeper explanation or components (which is why we would use 'fundamental' in referring to them).

    -TS

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  19. @rank sophist, (con't)

    I'm familiar with falsificationism. Unfortunately, as many philosophers (such as Feyerabend) have said, Popper's system does not represent actual scientific practice--and it runs the risk of limiting it. It sounds good in a debate, sure; but I'm criticizing the use of laws for real science.
    Popper was an effective popularizer and advocate of falsification as a key to scientific epistemology, but the concept was a core (if undervalued) principle of modern science long before Popper. Popper was one to call attention and focus to what was there, but didn't get much attention or credit as innovative in scientific epistemology.

    If you talk to a scientist, I'd be quite surprised if you'd hear back from them that falsification of their models was not a nullifier for their model. This is why, for example, M Theory (String theory), for all its pristine pedigree and sophisticated maths gets ridiculed and dismissed in scientific circles *as* practical science: it's not falsifiable, at least in practice (and may not be in principle, but that's controversial). It's not even wrong as they say.

    This applies all across the spectrum. Definitions and tautologies and clarifications are valuable resources to scientific discourse, but knowledge depends on propositions that are liable to falisification. If they aren't at risk of falsification, they are epistemically intert, in scientific terms. If it can't possibly be false, saying it's "true" as knowledge of the extra-mental world is meaningless.

    As it stands, scientists and most philosophers of science understand science as a search
    for evidence to prove hypotheses.

    I don't think that's nearly the case. If you survey scientists and philosophers of science (see here for an example of this), I believe you will find that science is a search for models that perform, models that are liability to falsification in principle, but yet are not (currently) falsified. Scientific knowledge is eliminative; what is 'true' and 'best' is really understand as "less false" and "less bad". Knowledge is not that which is proven, but that which is not falsified and might have been. This is a subtle but profound distinction, and essential to scientific epistemology.

    This is the standard operating model for much of theoretical physics, for instance. String theory is largely unfalsifiable, and yet it is considered "real science". We "prove" things and get nearer and nearer to a "complete" picture of the universe. Falsifiability reduces scientific practice to skeptical pragmatism.
    M Theory is unfortunately busted down to (or near -- at least it strives for scientific legitimacy) the level of theology. It's the famous target of the "not even wrong". You don't even need to consult the many vocal critics who regularly point this out (see the "Not Even Wrong", Peter Woit's book on this topic, for example); even the proponents and develpers of the theory grant the problem -- Leonard Susskind is as candid as can be about the falsification problems that obtain for M Theory, for example.

    I suggest your example here demonstrates precisely the opposite of what you suggest.

    -TS

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  20. According to standard science, universal laws are completely unprovable. Falsifiable?

    "Unprovable" is a divide-by-zero in this context. A law is "law-ified" on the grounds that it has wide contact points with our experience and testing and no known exceptions. A law cannot be "proven" but only "not disproven", and again, see above, that's a profound distinction. A single exception is sufficient to falsify a law -- that's the epistemic novelty that many people miss in science. Falsification can and does appeal to the strength of deductive logic. If my hypothesis is "All swans are white", if I have 10 million white swans in view, and no non-white swans, I've not falsified my hypothesis and that is good. But my hypothesis is still inductive in its proposition, necessarily. Unless and until I can demonstrate that all possible swans have been identified as white (!), induction is all I can appeal to in reasoning about this hypothesis.

    But, if I find one single black swan, it's over. Deductively -- not inductively -- but with the certainty of deduction, I can dismiss "all swans are white" as knowledge. This is the asymmetry that powers scientific knowledge. Proving and falsifying are not symmetric.

    @rank sophist, (con't)

    Sometimes. The Second Law isn't, though. Neither is the principle of the conservation of energy. Guess they aren't "real science"--so perhaps we should chuck them out.
    They are eminently falsifiable. If we can destroy matter -- experimentally banish it from existence -- the Second Law is toast! You are confusing the strength of the Second Law as an actual feature of our extra-mental reality with the possible worlds where it would not be at all tenable.

    -TS

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  21. TS,

    The falsification process only works if you have in hand an idea of the nature of swan that allows you to classify a novel instance as belonging to the class swans rather than some other class, or a new class entirely, and to distinguish accidental from essential properties. Otherwise, how do you know which class of objects the novel instance is supposed to falsify?

    In general, it takes more than a single instance to falsify scientific theories - this is the point of repeatable experiments. If other scientists can't replicate your results, then your conclusions are dismissed.

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  22. They are eminently falsifiable. If we can destroy matter -- experimentally banish it from existence -- the Second Law is toast!

    Except, as should be obvious: you can never verify that matter is "banished from existence" or destroyed in the way you're stating. At best, you get to "the matter is not detectable anymore".

    So no, it's not falsifiable, and the Second Law is not toast in that case.

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  23. They are eminently falsifiable. If we can destroy matter -- experimentally banish it from existence -- the Second Law is toast!

    Except, as should be obvious: you can never verify that matter is "banished from existence" or destroyed in the way you're stating. At best, you get to "the matter is not detectable anymore".

    So no, it's not falsifiable, and the Second Law is not toast in that case.

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  24. Oops. Ignore the double post. I'll blame blogger for confusing me.

    ReplyDelete
  25. This is why, for example, M Theory (String theory), for all its pristine pedigree and sophisticated maths gets ridiculed and dismissed in scientific circles *as* practical science

    This is incorrect as well. M Theory is controversial, but its ridicule and dismissal is anything but universal. Remember, no less than Stephen Hawking boosted it recently, and Richard Dawkins endorsed his ideas at the time.

    M Theory and String Theory may one day get ditched, but for now (and really, for quite a lot of recent history) it's been treated as a scientific idea. If that reflects poorly on scientists, so much the worse for them.

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  26. as far as I can see is that falsification just come in handy when things are controversial, like origin sciences, or sciences that are in the frontier of scientific knowledge. There, I think, is when people talk about falsificationism. Any place else is a big whatever.

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  27. @Anonymous

    Except, as should be obvious: you can never verify that matter is "banished from existence" or destroyed in the way you're stating. At best, you get to "the matter is not detectable anymore".

    So no, it's not falsifiable, and the Second Law is not toast in that case.

    "the matter is not detectable anymore" is sufficient. That's as falsifying as science gets -- it's empirical. If experimentally we create conditions where matter goes missing, even when we account for translation into energy dissipation and all that, the Second Law falls. Science knows nothing of a means to prove non-existence in some universal, metaphysically complete way. It's a phenomenological question, and if the experiments or tests show matter going missing under process X or Y, that's how falsification happens.

    -TS

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  28. @Anonymous,

    This is incorrect as well. M Theory is controversial, but its ridicule and dismissal is anything but universal. Remember, no less than Stephen Hawking boosted it recently, and Richard Dawkins endorsed his ideas at the time.
    I'm a fan of M Theory myself. Since it's not currently falsifiable that's a huge deficit in the framework, but it's beautiful in its elegance, and of course it is attractive because of the prospects of unifying all our physical models into one overarching framework.

    And it may be falsifiable in principle. Or more precisely it is falsifiable in principle, but only at enourmously high energy levels, (barring any new insights into other possible methods of falsifying it). If it's falsifiable in principle but not in any practical sense, not for a thousand or a million years hence, that's a huge problem. It might as well be theology at that point.

    M Theory gets lots of admiration from scientists, as it should, for its 'scientific construction'. It's imaginative and innovative, but it innovates in terms of explanations on scientific terms, not theological or abstract intuitions. That's all well and good, but if you cannot know an idea to be false, you don't have a basis for knowing it to be true. Too bad for M Theory, as structured, at this point.


    M Theory and String Theory may one day get ditched, but for now (and really, for quite a lot of recent history) it's been treated as a scientific idea. If that reflects poorly on scientists, so much the worse for them.

    It *is* a scientific idea. It's the product of advanced, highly sophisticated scientific thinking. There's no question about that, and it deserves praise for having the high quality scientific thinking in it that it does. But an idea is not knowledge. It's a scientific idea, but one that is epistemically inadequate for being regarded as knowledge. Many hypotheses originate from a "scientific mindset", and are "scientific on the front end", as opposed to, again, say, theological intuitions are manifestly something else. But the epistemology is unforgiving, which is why it holds together. M Theory represents the kind of theorizing most scientists (or physicists anyway). Scientific ideas don't get a pass just because they are scientific in their provenance, though. You either rise to the epistemic threshold (explanation, prediction, falsification, etc.) or you don't.

    If you don't, tough luck kid, no matter how "scientifically beautiful" you are.

    -TS

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  29. @Anonymous,

    This is incorrect as well. M Theory is controversial, but its ridicule and dismissal is anything but universal. Remember, no less than Stephen Hawking boosted it recently, and Richard Dawkins endorsed his ideas at the time.
    I'm a fan of M Theory myself. Since it's not currently falsifiable that's a huge deficit in the framework, but it's beautiful in its elegance, and of course it is attractive because of the prospects of unifying all our physical models into one overarching framework.

    And it may be falsifiable in principle. Or more precisely it is falsifiable in principle, but only at enourmously high energy levels, (barring any new insights into other possible methods of falsifying it). If it's falsifiable in principle but not in any practical sense, not for a thousand or a million years hence, that's a huge problem. It might as well be theology at that point.

    M Theory gets lots of admiration from scientists, as it should, for its 'scientific construction'. It's imaginative and innovative, but it innovates in terms of explanations on scientific terms, not theological or abstract intuitions. That's all well and good, but if you cannot know an idea to be false, you don't have a basis for knowing it to be true. Too bad for M Theory, as structured, at this point.


    M Theory and String Theory may one day get ditched, but for now (and really, for quite a lot of recent history) it's been treated as a scientific idea. If that reflects poorly on scientists, so much the worse for them.

    It *is* a scientific idea. It's the product of advanced, highly sophisticated scientific thinking. There's no question about that, and it deserves praise for having the high quality scientific thinking in it that it does. But an idea is not knowledge. It's a scientific idea, but one that is epistemically inadequate for being regarded as knowledge. Many hypotheses originate from a "scientific mindset", and are "scientific on the front end", as opposed to, again, say, theological intuitions are manifestly something else. But the epistemology is unforgiving, which is why it holds together. M Theory represents the kind of theorizing most scientists (or physicists anyway). Scientific ideas don't get a pass just because they are scientific in their provenance, though. You either rise to the epistemic threshold (explanation, prediction, falsification, etc.) or you don't.

    If you don't, tough luck kid, no matter how "scientifically beautiful" you are.

    -TS

    ReplyDelete
  30. @David T,

    The falsification process only works if you have in hand an idea of the nature of swan that allows you to classify a novel instance as belonging to the class swans rather than some other class, or a new class entirely, and to distinguish accidental from essential properties. Otherwise, how do you know which class of objects the novel instance is supposed to falsify?

    That's true. I am not seeing the problem, though. By definition, if you are going to falsify propositions based on classification, you need a classification system. It's presupposed. Any given classification system may be well designed and grounded for some purpose or not, but that's a separate question, a question of the merits of the classification system itself. But as a matter of falsification, one needs just one exception that accords with the classification system on its own terms (however meritorious that classification may be) in order to falsify a categorical proposition.

    This is nothing more than noting that a categorical proposition is... categorical, without exception. If you find an exception, the universality of the proposition cannot obtain, by definition.


    In general, it takes more than a single instance to falsify scientific theories - this is the point of repeatable experiments. If other scientists can't replicate your results, then your conclusions are dismissed.

    Yes, but that goes to the question of the reliability of the putative exception, the ostensible falsification. The retort often comes, when pointing out that finding a rabbit skeleton in the pre-Cambrian would falsify evolution that "oh, you would just claim it wasn't really from pre-Cambrian strata", or "the evidence was fabricated", etc. Indeed, such a discovery would bring intense scrutiny aimed at carefully checking the "credentials" of such a find, and perhaps that putative skeleton, as a single artifact in a single location in the rock layers where it was found is error-prone enough in terms of dating with extreme confidence for a single artifact that we would hedge on that.

    Obviously, repeatability -- lots and lots of rabbit skeletons in pre-Cambrian strata, coming from all over -- makes a difference.

    But that's an issue of vetting the phenomenon we are looking at as potentially falsifying. In principle, if just one example is vetted, is solid in its credentials, that is all it takes.

    -TS

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  31. TS,

    The point about falsification is that it can't work on your theory of knowledge. Our knowledge of the essence of swans is a necessary precursor to any possible falsification of anything we say about swans, because without it, we are helpless in identifying a novel instance of a thing as a swan. Essential knowledge of swans is non-falsifiable, but it is knowledge nonetheless. All this means is that we don't need to worry that we will discover something someday that proves that what we thought were swans were actually dogs, cats or ravens all along. No, swans are swans and nothings going to change that.

    But if I understand you correctly, you hold that this non-falsifiable knowledge of the essence of swans is "epistemically inert"; I'm not sure what that means, but it sounds like you mean it is useless. On the contrary, it is extremely useful, because you can't proceed with any sort of falsification without it.

    Definitions and tautologies and clarifications are valuable resources to scientific discourse, but knowledge depends on propositions that are liable to falisification. If they aren't at risk of falsification, they are epistemically intert, in scientific terms

    Just wondering if you have an answer to the standard refutation of positivism: "Knowledge depends on propositions that are liable to falsification" is not itself at risk of falsification, so it is epistemically inert (which I guess doesn't mean exactly false, but useless.)

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  32. TS,

    Any given classification system may be well designed and grounded for some purpose or not, but that's a separate question, a question of the merits of the classification system itself.

    It's not a separate question at all. The "grounding" of the classification system is the critical point. Everything else is secondary. Is the classification grounded in knowledge of nature or not?

    The knowledge that "grounds" classification cannot be the result of a falsification process, because it is a prerequisite to falsification. So are our classification systems grounded in knowledge of nature, and if so, how? If they are not, then the falsification system based on it can't be a knowledge of nature either.

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  33. That was me in the last comment, using the wrong tag.

    DT

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  34. "the matter is not detectable anymore" is sufficient. That's as falsifying as science gets -- it's empirical. If experimentally we create conditions where matter goes missing, even when we account for translation into energy dissipation and all that, the Second Law falls. Science knows nothing of a means to prove non-existence in some universal, metaphysically complete way. It's a phenomenological question, and if the experiments or tests show matter going missing under process X or Y, that's how falsification happens.

    No, this is flatly incorrect. If you cannot detect where the matter/energy has gone in a given experiment, that's exactly where you're at: you cannot detect where the matter/energy has gone. You have not shown that it has been "banished from existence", which is exactly what you were asking for.

    If you perform an experiment and matter is suddenly no longer detectable, even via "energy dissipation", then all that you are left with is missing matter. Maybe you cannot detect the energy or matter. Maybe it's now somewhere else, in some form you're not aware of. Maybe your knowledge of energy dissipation is incomplete. Maybe your knowledge of types of matter (dark matter comes to mind) is incomplete.

    But you haven't gotten to a falsification of the Second Law. At the absolute best, you've gotten to a falsification of something lesser, such as a current theory of how matter/energy should be detectable: and even now, those are theories with error bars.

    If scientists witnessed an experiment like this and started to come up with ideas and theories about where the missing matter/energy was, you couldn't turn around and say "Well the second law is falsified so your task is pointless", since they could turn right around and say exactly what I'm telling you.

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  35. But the epistemology is unforgiving, which is why it holds together. M Theory represents the kind of theorizing most scientists (or physicists anyway). Scientific ideas don't get a pass just because they are scientific in their provenance, though.

    Actually, they do get a pass in many quarters. I absolutely agree they don't get a pass with Peter Woit. They do get a pass with everyone from Dawkins to Hawking.

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  36. Bartholomew said...
    God made human beings with dirty finger nails, bad breath, and nasty digestive systems, especially when humanity was encumbered with a lack of toilet paper and decent plumbing. And he also allowed innocent animals to ravage each other and suffer disease and disaster for millions of years before humanity ever came on the scene. This implies, inescapably, that God has a twisted sense of humor, in which case God has a deficiency, in which case God does not exist.

    QED.


    I could get gnu atheist on you and give you a laundry list of the logical fallacies in this remark, but to do it correctly I would need to misidentify them and misspell a quarter of my post. Both of which are completely beneath me.

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  37. In addition to the very important criticisms levelled at Touchstone's position (to which he has not yet given satisfactory answers) by the above commenters, I'd like to add a few points.

    I wouldn't say our physical laws are inexplicable, if by that you mean they can't be further explained, even in principle, in terms of more fundamental, unifying "meta-laws". I'm quite open to that possibility. But while progress can be made in terms of "more fundamental fundamentals", that just leaves a new set of fundamentals as the brute facts of nature, and they are the new "unexplained".

    In other words, your system is predicated on a potentially infinite regress of mysterious laws that appeared from nothing. The only philosophical position that can arise from this is irrationalism.

    I don't see the problem in "laws" -- the map, the concept -- as abstractions. Of course they are, what else could they be? So I suspect you mean something else by "abstractions", like "immaterial thing", or some such. Is that the case?

    No. I personally do not believe that laws exist. They aren't material or immaterial--they're simply imagined. And how do we imagine them? By generalizing instances of inductive data. Which, to return to my initial point, seems to mean that the only "laws" at play are within those instances--singular substances--that we observe. Laws are unprovable and, in certain cases, unfalsifiable. They're mere projections. Forms are intrinsic to the things that we observe, and so they don't require us to say things like "this law applies to everything that we have and have not seen." Rather, we merely say, "Anything with this form must operate in a certain way unless A) it changes its form or B) it is influenced by something else." In this way, both grue and the problem of induction vanish.

    Popper was an effective popularizer and advocate of falsification as a key to scientific epistemology, but the concept was a core (if undervalued) principle of modern science long before Popper.

    This is a common defense of falsificationism, but I haven't seen much to substantiate it.

    This is why, for example, M Theory (String theory), for all its pristine pedigree and sophisticated maths gets ridiculed and dismissed in scientific circles *as* practical science: it's not falsifiable, at least in practice (and may not be in principle, but that's controversial). It's not even wrong as they say.

    M-theory is one of the most celebrated and talked about ideas in the current scientific world. Certainly it has detractors--but they are far outweighed by its supporters, which include everyone from you to Stephen Hawking. It isn't falsifiable, and yet people love it. So much for science being based on falsificationism.

    (will continue soon)

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  38. This applies all across the spectrum. Definitions and tautologies and clarifications are valuable resources to scientific discourse, but knowledge depends on propositions that are liable to falisification. If they aren't at risk of falsification, they are epistemically intert, in scientific terms. If it can't possibly be false, saying it's "true" as knowledge of the extra-mental world is meaningless.

    As Anon has pointed out, the Second Law remains unfalsifiable unless you resort to some form of verificationism--which would undermine your methodology. If the Second Law "can't possibly be false"--and, since you were trying to say that it was "metaphysical" earlier, this seems to be your belief--, then I suppose it isn't proper science. Of course, if you told that to any scientist, they'd laugh at you.

    This means that the Second Law is unfalsifiable and a generalization of inductive data. It can't be proven or disproven, and it's completely vulnerable to Goodman's paradox. In what way is this superior to a system based on forms?

    I don't think that's nearly the case. If you survey scientists and philosophers of science (see here for an example of this), I believe you will find that science is a search for models that perform, models that are liability to falsification in principle, but yet are not (currently) falsified. Scientific knowledge is eliminative; what is 'true' and 'best' is really understand as "less false" and "less bad".

    This is a position that they take in debates, but never when speaking about science in a normal way. No one believes that science is merely guesswork based on "less bad" and "less false" models: they think we're getting closer to a "complete picture", which will allow science to tell us everything about reality.

    I suggest your example here demonstrates precisely the opposite of what you suggest.

    Hardly. A few outliers who take potshots at a leading theory don't affect the growing consensus. Hawking's endorsement is infinitely more meaningful than that book you mentioned.

    But, if I find one single black swan, it's over. Deductively -- not inductively -- but with the certainty of deduction, I can dismiss "all swans are white" as knowledge. This is the asymmetry that powers scientific knowledge. Proving and falsifying are not symmetric.

    As Anon said, a belief in the law will trump falsifying findings. Consider dark matter. Has it ever been found? No. All tests for it--including the ones from the LHC--have failed to locate even a trace. Yet it's still a leading theory. A few people have decided that it's probably wrong, but that's hardly a popular opinion. Dark matter (the law) is preferred over the findings that seem to falsify it. You see this all over the place in science.

    "All swans are white" can be falsified very easily, but it isn't representative of most scientific research.

    They are eminently falsifiable. If we can destroy matter -- experimentally banish it from existence -- the Second Law is toast! You are confusing the strength of the Second Law as an actual feature of our extra-mental reality with the possible worlds where it would not be at all tenable.

    As Anon said, we would need to "verify" the banishment of matter before the Second Law was considered falsified. If matter simply appeared to vanish, we would infinitely prefer keeping the Second Law. In fact, unless we could verify the non-existence of matter, then there would be absolutely no way that we would discard the Second Law. So, the Second Law is not falsifiable in a system based entirely on falsificationism.

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  39. BenYachov,

    Dr. Feser opened the door to my line of questioning when he said this:
    Hearing, from a non-Catholic relative, some of the stock anti-Catholic arguments for the first time -- “That isn't in the Bible!”, “This came from paganism!”, “Here’s what they did to people in the Middle Ages!”, etc. -- I was mesmerized, and convinced, seemingly for good. Sola scriptura-based arguments are extremely impressive, until you come to realize that their basic premise -- sola scriptura itself -- has absolutely nothing to be said for it.
    So I was entirely within my rights to probe the issue further.

    Your statement: "there is no Salvation Outside the Catholic Church" was a personal affront to me and to any other non-Catholic believer who happens to read this blog - so I called you on it. Let me also point out that "there is no Salvation Outside the Catholic Church" would be taken by the majority of the English speaking world to mean "only Catholics can be saved" so I don't feel like I was out of place at all to call you on that.

    The fact that you're extremely opinionated, completely intolerant, and unable to control your temper (at least on the internet) is not my problem - nor is it my fault.

    Have a nice day.

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  40. @David T,

    The point about falsification is that it can't work on your theory of knowledge. Our knowledge of the essence of swans is a necessary precursor to any possible falsification of anything we say about swans, because without it, we are helpless in identifying a novel instance of a thing as a swan.
    I can't identify any meaning in 'essence' of swans, but falsification requires predicates as the basis for our semantics for the term "falsified", declarations we establish as the symbols and referents in the proposition(s) we are evaluating. But "bad classification" doesn't negate any falsification; it just means your classification is faulty, and thus (depending on the problem), falsification may not provide what you are looking for.

    But think of the worst classification system you can think of in terms of "essence" or morphology or whatever. As long as you can apply tests for the discriminating criteria (white, non-white, longer than 2m, shorter than 2m, etc.), you can identify observations that can be tested, and thus falsified based on that criteria (in principle).

    Saying "but you're classification system sucks!" won't change the falsification. The falsification obtains on the merits of the semantics and test criteria it is applied to.

    Essential knowledge of swans is non-falsifiable, but it is knowledge nonetheless.
    I cannot establish "essential knowledge of swans" from the empty set. What separates your "essential knowledge of swans" from the empty set?

    If you give me a description, I will tell you "essence" adds nothing to my knowledge -- got that, already. If you tell me you "sense" something beyond description, I will wonder how that "knowledge" is different from simply imagining you have such knowledge, which seems the simpler verdict given the vague and detached nature of your claim (assuming it's not based on descriptive classifications).

    -TS

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  41. @David T,

    All this means is that we don't need to worry that we will discover something someday that proves that what we thought were swans were actually dogs, cats or ravens all along. No, swans are swans and nothings going to change that.
    Things are what they are. A=A. But "swan" is a concept in our heads. We are completely unaware of any "swan-essence" that is distinct from a composite of more fundamental matter and energy that is configured in such a pattern that we group that phenomena according to our conceptual abstractions.

    This is as pure an example as I've seen in a long while of confusing map with territory. We find conceptual abstractions quite handy and useful. But these are mapping tricks. The categories are handy mnemonics for our maps. We have perfectly no referent to such "essence" as part of the territory. If we just assume, arguendo that "essence" is wholly contained on the conceptual side of the fence, (part of our map adornments), we lose nothing. Nothing at all. The isomorphism is as it was.

    But if I understand you correctly, you hold that this non-falsifiable knowledge of the essence of swans is "epistemically inert"; I'm not sure what that means, but it sounds like you mean it is useless. On the contrary, it is extremely useful, because you can't proceed with any sort of falsification without it.

    No, as above, you just need consistent terminology as your "starter kit". All sorts of problems need to be considered in terms of how the propositions being considered apply to extra-mental reality, but so long as we have a) consistent language terms, and b) empirical tools that can provide input according to the terms for our proposition ("This swan is black"), we're good to go.

    If someone says, "but swans *must* be white, that's entailed by the definition of 'swan'". Well if so, it's not a falsifiable proposition, right there; it's a tautology. Analytic proposition, vs. a synthetic proposition, in Kantian terms.

    If someone else says "swans must have 16 tail feathers, and this putative "black swan only has 12 tail feathers", then the issue just gets relocated to the merits of our terms. What do we want to use as a working definition of "swan"?

    Just wondering if you have an answer to the standard refutation of positivism: "Knowledge depends on propositions that are liable to falsification" is not itself at risk of falsification, so it is epistemically inert (which I guess doesn't mean exactly false, but useless.)

    No answer needed from me. I'm no positivist, and that pretty much captures the problem right there. I would hope after all this exposition on falsification and epistemology that should be clear, but there it is.

    -TS

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  42. @David T,


    It's not a separate question at all. The "grounding" of the classification system is the critical point. Everything else is secondary. Is the classification grounded in knowledge of nature or not?

    Important (to me), but a separate question. What are the merits of the classification system? That will impact your assessment of any falsification, or non-falsification of the propositions/models being tested. But falsification is just the identification of exceptions to the rules declared by that framework.


    The knowledge that "grounds" classification cannot be the result of a falsification process, because it is a prerequisite to falsification. So are our classification systems grounded in knowledge of nature, and if so, how? If they are not, then the falsification system based on it can't be a knowledge of nature either.

    Falsification is propositional. To the extent the proposition is connected to states and dynamics of the natural world, falsification obtains against natural definitions. But a proposition is not intrinsically bound to a natural referent, nor is intrinsically unbound from a natural referent. Each proposition (er, more properly, model) must be evaluated on its own merits.

    This is why science insists on naturalism as part of its methodology. This helps insure that falsification obtains against putative knowledge, that something that could have been knowledge is eliminated. Scientific models are constructed from natural mechanisms and observations, and output natural phenomena as predictions that can be tested. This ensures that the falsifiability of these models actual pertains to the extra-mental world, that it's actually non-knowledge that we are discovering, and eliminating.

    -TS

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  43. Things are what they are. A=A. But "swan" is a concept in our heads. We are completely unaware of any "swan-essence" that is distinct from a composite of more fundamental matter and energy that is configured in such a pattern that we group that phenomena according to our conceptual abstractions.

    You realize that this is undefended nominalism, right? (Possibly conceptualism, depending on how you flesh it out.) It has all kinds of problems, not least of which is Goodman's paradox.

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  44. @Anonymous,

    No, this is flatly incorrect. If you cannot detect where the matter/energy has gone in a given experiment, that's exactly where you're at: you cannot detect where the matter/energy has gone. You have not shown that it has been "banished from existence", which is exactly what you were asking for.
    Not being able to detect where the matter/energy has gone suffices. The basis for the Second Law is the empirical accounting that got done that showed that work done produced an equivalent amount of heat. Experimentally, over the course of a hundred years or more, ending with Clausius' first full articulation of the law, the accounting and measurements improved become more thorough, and converged on conservation.

    Which is to say, we can account for what we began with, after the experiment (burning, grinding, cooling, etc.). If, experimentally, we cannot "balance the books", the law falls. And specifically with respect to your objection, the model eschews voodoo; this is science, and so "we don't know where it went" doesn't save the First Law.

    If you perform an experiment and matter is suddenly no longer detectable, even via "energy dissipation", then all that you are left with is missing matter. Maybe you cannot detect the energy or matter. Maybe it's now somewhere else, in some form you're not aware of. Maybe your knowledge of energy dissipation is incomplete. Maybe your knowledge of types of matter (dark matter comes to mind) is incomplete.

    These are the ramifications of the falsification you are disputing. "Maybe we just cannot detect where it is!" won't save the law. The First Law is a physics principle, and rests on the other physical principles and knowledge of the discipline. "We don't know where it went, but it must be somewhere" would get laughed at as a support for the Law.


    But you haven't gotten to a falsification of the Second Law. At the absolute best, you've gotten to a falsification of something lesser, such as a current theory of how matter/energy should be detectable: and even now, those are theories with error bars.

    I was thinking we were talking about the conservation of mass/energy (First Law), but if you want to talk about the Second Law, fine. The same point above applies, but falsification is even more straightforward for the Second Law: build a perpetual motion machine! If you can produce net energy increase, negative entropy on a perpetual basis, the Second Law is toast.

    It's an epistemic fail to say "But that would never happen"! That may be (and I believe is the case) in this universe, but that just underscores the epistemic strength of that bit of knowledge. Experimentally, though, we have a very simple recipe for falsification in that machine. That would be a world different than the one we find ourselves in experimentally, but in that case, it's case closed.

    I think this point should be perfectly uncontroversial, as that is one aspect of the Second Law that is fairly well and widely understood: per the SLoT, no perpetual motion can possibly be constructed. One very direct way to dismiss the SLoT would be to construct such a machine, as has been tried many, many times.


    If scientists witnessed an experiment like this and started to come up with ideas and theories about where the missing matter/energy was, you couldn't turn around and say "Well the second law is falsified so your task is pointless", since they could turn right around and say exactly what I'm telling you.

    You mean if I unveiled my Perpetual Motion Machine, and let them watching produce net work while consuming no energy from the environment around it, for years, they'd tell me the SLoT still stands?

    This is an example you will commonly hear in a freshman physics class, by the way.

    -TS

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  45. @Anonymous,

    M Theory and String Theory may one day get ditched, but for now (and really, for quite a lot of recent history) it's been treated as a scientific idea. If that reflects poorly on scientists, so much the worse for them.
    It is a scientific idea, and will remain one, even if ditched. It just failed as scientific *knowledge*, if it indeed does fail, either because a) it never achieved falsifiability, and thus can't qualify as knowledge, or it achieved falsifiability and was falsified (or otherwise superseded by a variant or other challenger).

    Science runs on hypothesis as its input. It has rigorous and demanding criteria for what gets accepted as knowledge on the back end, but it depends on diverse, imaginative, and sometimes crazy ideas on the front end. Even if M Theory never achieves falsifiability, it wasn't clear at the beginning what of these difficulties would arise if any. But it emerges from well attested scientific models and knowledge, and is a attempt at a harmonizing model that unifies QED and GR, and integrates them both *as they are*.

    That can't save a scientific idea from being non-knowledge if it can't be falsified, but it does distinguish it from "essence of swan", or creatio ex nihilo, etc. as conjectures. It may fail, but it fails with the pedigree of a scientific idea.

    -TS

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  46. @rank sophist,


    You realize that this is undefended nominalism, right? (Possibly conceptualism, depending on how you flesh it out.) It has all kinds of problems, not least of which is Goodman's paradox.

    If you find a philosophical paradigm that is "problem free", it's time to get your head checked out. Of course, like any other paradigm, problems obtain. The trick is choosing a framework with the best quality of problems. I'm not sure I'd say Goodman's problems are the "least" of the problems, but I would say raising Goodman/grue as the one problem named in objecting to nominalism is quite curious, indeed.

    Which prompts me to point out that Nelson Goodman, the "Goodman" in "Goodman's Paradox", was himself a nominalist. And not just your garden variety nominalist, but along with one or two other peers (Lesniewski, Quine), was a pioneer of modern nominalism.

    That doesn't vindicate nominalism, but it's quite an odd bit of resistance to encounter on nominalism, Mssr. Goodman. He's someone I've long been familiar with, like Quine, *because* of his nominalism (as well his impact on coherentism and constructionalism).

    Anyway, problems obtain, to be sure, but I find the problems attending nominalism "high class problems" with respect to the problems that obtain in many other alternatives that I am familiar with.

    -TS

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  47. I'm aware that Goodman was a nominalist. I'm also aware that his solution to the paradox was a skeptical one that led ultimately to irrationalism and total relativism. It was really no better than the skeptical solution to the Kripkenstein problem.

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  48. @touchstone
    --“It's just a form of metaphysics that's scientifically grounded, and which regards a Thomistic denotation of metaphysics as distinct and parochial with respect to it.”

    No, you have it all backwards. It’s scientific naturalism’s denotation of “metaphysics” that classical/real metaphysics (not materialistic pretentions such as those you seem to believe in) consider parochial, limited and absurd. You’re also wrong is claiming that it’s scientifically grounded. A correct definition would be “scientiSTIically” reducible. Tu quoque.
    It’s also incoherent for a naturalist like you to appeal to any sort of “law” as an accurate description of reality. A prescriptive law, which you seem to try to elevate to the status of a metaphysic has no place in naturalism.

    --“Scientific epistemology understand "ultimate knowledge" to be fool's errand -- explanations have to break down at some level, else you have infinite regress,”

    No, scientific epistemologists (let’s stop talking about science as if it’s an anthropomorphic entity) realize that science has limits and is incompetent in penetrating reality beyond the appearances, so they conjure nonsense in the nature of “mataphysics (which is knowledge of ultimate reality) is a fool’s game. Neither they nor you are convincing anyone with such ignorant hogwash. Also, since ultimate knowledge is “a fool’s game” how can you claim that the 2nd Law is a metaphysical principle? [Hint: It’s a rhetorical question aimed at your contradictions, no need to come up with excuses.]

    -- “information cannot be garnered through immaterial or supernatural means…[in principle you so claim]”

    This is just ridiculous and irrelevant. That is simply not a statement anyone can make or prove. It’s also a normative statement, something you seem to eschew. In your own words: “"Normative" is problematic.” That’s the second contradiction you’ve committed.

    “Scientific metaphysics -- the kind that are conclusions and inferences (like the Second Law) that are based on a network of performative theories as opposed to metaphysical axioms like the hunch that our sense experience is to some significant degree veridical, have only as much force and relevance as those axioms.”

    So without this “hunch” as you call it, it’s byebye scientism (let’s stop calling it “scientific metaphysics” and call it by its real name, ok?). I also find it rather amusing how you conveniently appeal to our senses being allegedly veridical in order to avoid providing a coherent and rational defense as to why veridical sense experience given your naturalism is even possible. Nice gimmick.

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  49. --“They derive from a scientific epistemology, which eliminates wide swaths of speculation and conjecture that other areas of philosophy (like theology) help themselves to liberally, but the scope and depth of the metaphysical conclusions are, in my view, can be and often are just as general/fundamental as any other approach to metaphysics.”

    Eliminates? As in created sci-fi fantasies such a multiverses? Makes conjectures about entities that have never been observed by our alleged veridical senses, such as dark matter? Treats abstractions as concrete realities MWI? You also seem to be a fan of M-theory, yet there’s not a shred of support for it. You and others call it “science”… A reasonable person calls it technocentric mythology. Finally,the metaphysical conclusions of scientism are neither fundamental nor have a wide scope, they are as narrow as they can possibly be. Evidenced in its very essence in fact: Reductionism.

    --“ Scientific metaphysics, then, are (or can be) fully competitive with Thomistic”
    Stop referring to it as scientific metaphysics. You’re not lending it any credibility in doing so. Scientism (epistemology) and naturalism (ontology) are not in any way competitors with Aristotelian, Platonic, or any other coherent and intelligible metaphysic available. The only reason why they are still around is as Edward puts it an animus against religion and mere fad. While science may help inform metaphysics, it’s wholly inept in constructing a metaphysic of its own.

    --"Provable" is a problematic term in science. Scientific epistemology is eliminative, which means we don't acquire knowledge in the "it is proven" sense, but rather we eliminate less performative hypotheses and models, adopting the "least problematic and least falsified" as our current champion representing current knowledge. An essential feature of a scientific law is that it is operative without empirical exception -- universally consistent as far as we can tell. It's not "provable" any more than any theory is. Science only falsifies and takes away.

    This is sheer nonsense. To think after the work of Lakatos, Khun and Feyerabend, people would still preach this false image of science is beyond me. First, a scientific theory is not falsified by a single recording of data but rather, which the theory reaches a critical mass and there is something with which to replace it with. Second, you’re ignoring politics (which are becoming more prevalent in science). Third, you’re equivocating pragmatism with realism. The latter is what drives science primarily and given that it has very little authority over realist interpretations of reality. You can claim otherwise of course but pragmatism does not entail realism. That’s my point.


    --“ But "form" is a linguistic construct”

    This made me laugh. I don’t think you understand the concept of form. Without it, nothing would be intelligible, even the very sentence in which you attempt to reject it. Contradiction #3.

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  50. -- “The notion of form is perfectly unfalsifiable..”
    Ah, therein lies the problem. Your unwavering faith in scientism. Yes, anything that is unfalsifiable should be discarded. At this point, you’re starting to sound a little insane if I were to be honest. There is a name for this type of insanity… Ah, yes, positivism. I thought that the epidemic was curtailed… Maybe I was wrong.

    --“ Other propositions -- the Thomistic/Aristotelian idea of "motion", for example, is just not scientific… and doesn't pretend to be.”
    The idea of motion in the Aristotelian sense is the reality of change a pre-scientific truth, which science must presuppose in order to operate in the first place. It’s more fundamental than scientific descriptions.

    --“ You can try to deny the veridicality of that sense-data, but your brain stem will overrule you, and cause your hand to pull away.”

    Just like those Buddhist monks that immolated themselves in an act of protest? Your argument is pretty poor and rests again on an equivocation fallacy. You keep addressing the pragmatic aspect of the veridical (allegedly) nature of sense experience yet trying to present it as a means to realism. If not, then in this regard I might have misread you. If I have, then your argument evidently undermines your entire epistemological system… Unless of course you’re simply content in believing only in models, which are not necessarily accurate reflections of reality.

    --“ Unlike the hyper-rationalist, to choose a competing alternative, for example, the scientific thinker has a heuristic that operates under the axiom that provides a measure of objective judging. This means that the scientific thinker has tools to aide in minimizing bias, and detecting errors that the pure rationalist can't have, through the harnessing of objective confederation of our experiences.”

    Again, the gimmick of calling it an axiom because you cannot justify it given naturalism. Nice. There is no objective judging, that’s the very thing that the skeptic brings into question. You’re just stating empiricist dogma now without justification. The rationalist too has his problems, however to his credit, your entire argument is based on reasoning not sense experience. You’re trying to defend empiricism, yet you’re utilizing abstract reason. Contradiction #4.

    --“ it's made as an exercise in an epistemology that doesn't provide a means of error correction or feedback loops that come from outside own's own mind. It's overwhelmingly and pervasively subjective, and thus prone to the epistemic problems that go with that.”

    This is just nonsense that stems from a biased and skewed view of reality and history entrenched in positivism. The truth is, science is not the only enterprise capable of allowing its adherents to correct one another. In fact, this activity has its roots in philosophy, not in science and goes all the way back to Socrates with his practice of ‘elenchos’. Further, this view of science is very simplistic and one that has been refuted by many philosophers of science. The empiricist is in no better position than the rationalist since he too is committed to an overwhelmingly subjective belief system, namely the glorification of sense experience. Onless you can prove as a naturalist why your sense experience provides you truthful insight in regards the nature of reality no amount of excuses with suffice (hint: ‘hardwired’ is one such excuse).

    --“ The scientific epistemology is unique in the rigor and demands it places on itself in terms of corrigibility and accountability to extra-mental input”

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  51. --“ The scientific epistemology is unique in the rigor and demands it places on itself in terms of corrigibility and accountability to extra-mental input”

    More scientism dogma. It’s not unique and just like every other human inquiry has its problems. In it and of itself (scientism) it becomes incoherent and self-refuting, which makes it even worse. The irony is, your entire argument is a mental exercise! Funny stuff.


    --“ If they aren't at risk of falsification, they are epistemically intert, in scientific terms. If it can't possibly be false, saying it's "true" as knowledge of the extra-mental world is meaningless.”

    This is just the same dogma of positivism all over again. You just redefined the verifiability criterion with the falsifiability criterion. It makes no difference whatsoever as they are both problematic in the same sense. And if one were an aggressive skeptic he would point out that both principles are self-refuting. If they are provisional, that’s fine, but if they are the underpinnings of a metaphysic as they are in your case, then forget about it. Your metaphysic, based on science or not is dead and unintelligible.



    --“Knowledge is not that which is proven, but that which is not falsified and might have been. This is a subtle but profound distinction, and essential to scientific epistemology.”

    No, it’s not. That is not how science works. Both Khun and Feyeraben put that myth to rest. That is how the proponents of scientism wish science worked (it can’t not even in principle given the complexity of theories) but in reality it doesn’t. It’s extremely messy and provisional at best. Also, by your definition the proposition ‘there is a demon on mars’, is knowledge. It can be falsified but it hasn’t. Cheers.

    --“M Theory is unfortunately busted down to (or near -- at least it strives for scientific legitimacy) the level of theology”

    This is mere rhetoric. Down? The good ol’ Theology is bad and science is going to save the day. How can anyone take you seriously if you have such a terrible understanding of Theology and its history. Why do you have this attitude towards Theology? Because you’re committed, blindly to scientism of course… An idea that as I have explained in self-refuting. The only meaningful statements are scientific statements… The only problem is, this is not a scientific statement. Commit it to the fires for it’s nothing but “sophistry and illusion”.

    Regardless, M-theory being propagated as science is comical. It shows just how ridiculous this myth of scientism actually is and how religiously driven some “scientists” are. “Human all too human” as our “favorite” angry atheist would say.

    --“They are eminently falsifiable. If we can destroy matter -- experimentally banish it from existence”

    How would you know that you banished it from existence? I didn’t know existence was part of the vocabulary of scientism. Didn’t carnap himself deny the category? How do you measure “banished” from existence?” Are you listening to yourself? You just proved that the 2nd law is unfalsifiable now and therefore not science according to your claims. I see you concede the point in later post but is insufficient to claim that if it’s undetectable the law is actually violated. So your argument fails regardless.

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  52. --“M-theory it innovates in terms of explanations on scientific terms, not theological or abstract intuitions”
    So? Just because you use scientific jargon it makes it more “real”? Good grief, you’re making less sense with each consecutive statement you make. And this obsession you have of pretending that a philosophical idea is somewhat second to a scientific is pathetic. We’ve already established that the entire edifice of science rest of such an intuition, you called it “hunch” regarding the accuracy of our senses in revealing the world as it truly is. How convenient for you to forget what you said a few minutes ago and then follow up with the same empty rhetoric of scientism. And if M-theory is not abstract… then I don’t know what is.

    --“It *is* a scientific idea.”

    As of now, it’s just sci-fi mythology. Stop trying to put lipstick on a pig, please.

    --“You either rise to the epistemic threshold (explanation, prediction, falsification, etc.) or you don't”

    M-theory fails therefore fails. Contradiction #5

    --“We are completely unaware of any "swan-essence" that is distinct from a composite of more fundamental matter and energy that is configured in such a pattern that we group that phenomena according to our conceptual abstractions.”

    I kept wondering what is he trying to say? What is he trying to say? The statement I was reading were incoherent, until I saw this. Of course, you’re a nominalist. You do realize that nominalism is self-refuting right? But here’s a question for you, Prove to us that ‘swan’ is a mere conceptual abstraction that exists only in your mind. Do not engage in the usual circular “logic” and reductionist nonsense please (well you already have but I’ll pretend I didn’t see it). Prove it.

    Also, your argument stinks of pragmatism and again you seem to try and pass it as realism. Very disingenuous.

    --“If we just assume, arguendo that "essence" is wholly contained on the conceptual side of the fence, (part of our map adornments), we lose nothing. Nothing at all.

    No. You lose your mind. ;-)

    --“That can't save a scientific idea from being non-knowledge if it can't be falsified, but it does distinguish it from "essence of swan", or creatio ex nihilo, etc. as conjectures. It may fail, but it fails with the pedigree of a scientific idea.”

    Again, you are making it increasingly difficult to take you seriously. What on earth does “the pedigree of scientific idea” mean if it’s false? The steady state model, the ether theory and a bunch of other false scientific ideas also have pedigree… It’s just a gimmick constructed by the likes of you to feel better about your materialistic scientism. It has no pragmatic benefit (one of your core principles), it’s false and worthless…But hey, it can be falsified in principle… It has a pedigree let’s give it a medal. Comical.

    --“Anyway, problems obtain, to be sure, but I find the problems attending nominalism "high class problems" with respect to the problems that obtain in many other alternatives that I am familiar with.”

    You’re only fooling yourself. The problems of nominalism are actually ghetto problems. That’s how terrible it is. But hey, maybe you like living in the ghetto… Just like every other relativist.

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  53. What are the merits of the classification system? That will impact your assessment of any falsification, or non-falsification of the propositions/models being tested. But falsification is just the identification of exceptions to the rules declared by that framework.

    The only relevant "merit" of a classification system is whether it is true. When we classify things as swans, are we accurately classifying them according to their real natures? If you hold to any other standard, then the system you develop will not reflect nature, but only the arbitrary standard you used to set up your system. And that's the problem with empiricism. Every time I think I've driven you to the hook your empiricism has in nature, you retreat into yet further qualifications about rules and merits. This is as it must be, because the problem with empiricism is that it really doesn't have a hook in nature, and the only way to get one is to import some or all of an Aristotelian-style substance philosophy to back it up. If you insist that all the form/essence/substance talk is empty, then you are left with no possible hook in nature, which is either frankly admitted (by Hume and Kant), or avoided by positing the hook as at the end of an endless retreat into rules and qualifications, which seems to be what is happening here. What most scientists do, not being philosophically sophisticated, is implicitly import the Aristotelian principles they need into their worldview without realizing they are doing so.

    You've avoided disputing my conclusion about the relationship between classification and falsification by softballing it with the statement that a classification system "impacts" falsification. It does much more than merely impact it. The classification system is what makes falsification at all possible in the first place, and forms the basis of any meaning falsification might have. Do you dispute that or not? If you don't, then I hope we can agree that the whole game is in how that classification system is known and its relationship to nature. If you do, then I would be interested in hearing how a falsification can occur without a prior classification on which to base it.

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  54. Not my fight, but since I've benefited much from Ben Yachov's comments in many threads, I should take the opportunity to thank him and as him to keep it up.

    Daniel Smith,

    Your comment of 4:33 is ground for shame. You recognize you don't know what you're talking about, but your FEEEEELINGS are still ruffled, so you feel completely justified in being angry. What kind of argument is that? If you don't know what you're talking about, and somebody explains it to you, the proper reaction is gratitude. Try it next time.

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  55. This is why science insists on naturalism as part of its methodology. This helps insure that falsification obtains against putative knowledge, that something that could have been knowledge is eliminated.

    Right. Falsification tests putative knowledge, no one denies that. What you are missing is that the falsification test itself can't be based on putative knowledge, or we are just testing in a circle. The falsification test must be based on knowledge full stop. And that knowledge is found in the classification system that grounds the falsification.

    Here is the fork in the road: Do we have knowledge of nature, not based on falsification yet more surely known than any "putative knowledge" we test with falsification, on which to base the process of falsification? If we do, how do we know it? If we don't, then we have arrived at nominalism.

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  56. By the way, you still have not answered adequately Davit T's question:


    "So are our classification systems grounded in knowledge of nature, and if so, how? If they are not, then the falsification system based on it can't be a knowledge of nature either."

    Enough with the Kantina gimmicks. Yes or no? And if yes, how is it possible for our categories to entail accurate knowledge of reality given nominalism?

    All you did was assert dogmatically your commitment to naturalism.

    Also: "To the extent the proposition is connected to states and dynamics of the natural world, falsification obtains against natural definitions."

    That's just an asumption not an argument. According to that a definition that which is unfalsifiable is not natural. So the 2nd law as it has transpired in the discussion is now not natural.

    Good grief...

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  57. Virtually all the stories I know about people who converted o reverted to Catholicism (mine included) has this in common: there isn’t a conversion moment you can single out — it happens as a process (or something like that).

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  58. "So are our classification systems grounded in knowledge of nature, and if so, how? If they are not, then the falsification system based on it can't be a knowledge of nature either."

    Enough with the Kantina gimmicks. Yes or no? And if yes, how is it possible for our categories to entail accurate knowledge of reality given nominalism?

    This is to ask "Are all statements true or all statements false -- YES OR NO?" Neither yes or no adequates. Some statements are true, some are not. If you want to consider a particular classification system, we can apply tests for grounding in nature -- are the distinguishing attributes determined phenomonologically? for example.

    But if we are considering number classification systems, we are not grounding the discriminating attributes in natural phenomena, but mathematic properties. Falsification of a proposition based on *that* classification system would not consider nor even need to contemplate "discriminating natural phenomenon". Proposition X that says set Y has no members with property Z is falsified in mathematical terms, according to the mathematical classifications that establish property Z (and set Y, etc.).


    All you did was assert dogmatically your commitment to naturalism.

    Neither materialism nor naturalism is entailed by such an epistemology. You can digest and process knowledge on the grounds of veridicality of sensory experience, falsifiability of models based on that sensory experience, etc., and believe an immaterial being (!) wanted to sacrifice his (material/immaterial) son (!) so you could live forever after you death (!) singing praises that being.

    It just would not be regarded as "knowledge" where your knowledge is substantiated by liability to falsification and variable experience of the world around you.

    Neither would such an epistemology prevent you from a commitment to philosophical materialism/naturalism. The point being, this is an epistemic issue, and as such, it must be underwritten by grounding metaphysical commitments, which are themselves, non-scientific, pre-epistemic.

    [quote]
    Also: "To the extent the proposition is connected to states and dynamics of the natural world, falsification obtains against natural definitions."

    That's just an asumption not an argument. According to that a definition that which is unfalsifiable is not natural. So the 2nd law as it has transpired in the discussion is now not natural.

    Good grief...
    [quote]
    No, you're getting ontology and epistemology confused. If proposition X is unfalsifiable, that is an epistemic limitation. That does not, in itself, have bearing on its ontology, whether it is natural or not. Which is just to say that we do not have reason to understand that the set of natural propositions which are knowable (via falsification on empirical grounds) is the complete set of natural propositions that obtain. Rather, we have reason to think that the set of knowable natural propositions is a subset of the natural propositions that obtain , precisely because we have limited epistemic faculties about the natural world.

    Instead of "that which is unfalsifiable is not natural", "that which is unfalsifiable is not meaningful as knowledge".

    -TS

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  59. @Anonymous,

    Again, you are making it increasingly difficult to take you seriously. What on earth does “the pedigree of scientific idea” mean if it’s false? The steady state model, the ether theory and a bunch of other false scientific ideas also have pedigree… It’s just a gimmick constructed by the likes of you to feel better about your materialistic scientism. It has no pragmatic benefit (one of your core principles), it’s false and worthless…But hey, it can be falsified in principle… It has a pedigree let’s give it a medal. Comical.
    Out of time for tonight, will just quickly address this for now.

    What does the "pedigree of a scientific idea" mean if it's false?

    Quite a lot actually. The aim is for hypotheses that bear out as knowledge and earn the meaningful application of "true", but falsification is the grist of the mill that produces that knowledge. Science works from hypothesis through testing and possible falsification. If you don't supply new candidates, some of which will be falsified, you won't get any new knowledge, new hypotheses that become performative theories, either. The enterprise of knowledge building stops.

    This is ground theology can't even step foot on. A false idea may be the "loser", but it is at least "in the game". Theology conjectures can't even get on the playing field, can't possibly succeed or fail as knowledge. That's a bit of self-indulgent beating up on poor helpless ol' theology, but I think it makes the point.

    Theology: not even wrong.

    It can't even rise to being considered 'false'. So a 'false scientific idea' is something. For all we might look with disdain at a falsified scientific hypothesis, all the more is the poverty of the theological conjecture.

    -TS

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  60. Dr. Feser,
    I'm sure this has been addressed somewhere, but I can't find it. How does the Incarnation factor into your position as a classical theist? Is there anywhere where you address the humanity of Jesus alongside the classical theist view of God? I would gather that you would say there are no contradictions, but nonetheless I would be interested in seeing how you (or anyone else who wants to comment) address the issue (or non-issue). Thanks!

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  61. @touchstone

    --“This is to ask "Are all statements true or all statements false …….-- are the distinguishing attributes determined phenomonologically? for example.”

    No, it’s not. It pertains to what David T. and myself have been trying to get to, namely whether what we know is anything pertaining to what reality is or merely a game we play in our own minds whereby we erect arbitrary criteria and check data against such criteria deluding ourselves into thinking we’ve come a step closer to understanding reality (nominalism). This is precisely what you’re doing. But you’ve already admitted to believing in nominalism and thus refuse to adequately address the issue. That’s fine.

    --“But if we are considering number classification ……. (and set Y, etc.).”

    Interesting that you bring up mathematics. Many would argue and have argued that naturalism cannot account for mathematical entities. If that’s the case, again the naturalist is playing games in his own head getting no closer to understanding reality that by staring at the sun. This is the insurmantable problem in fact that the so-called “enlightenment” has created for its followers. The epistemologization of everything. Which is of course, intellectual nihilism.



    --“Neither materialism nor naturalism …….., pre-epistemic.”

    It implicitly is entailed (naturalism), but it doesn’t seem you want to take it that far since you cannot defend it. That’s fine. Also, who is to say that knowledge is only that which amends itself to sensory experience? Can you prove that? No. It’s just an unjustified assumption. Knowledge does not require liability to falsification to be regarded as knowledge. That’s just you personal, arbitrary assumption elevated to the status of dogma. Why? So you can pretend as a naturalist (I fail to see how you aren’t one) that somehow your “knowledge” (as you call it) is somehow “better” than the knowledge of anyone not committed to your epistemology and consequently your ontology.
    Sure, you can continue playing these games, but we both know what you’re doing and why you’re doing it. If it wasn’t for the reasons I explicated you’d have no need to do it in the first place.
    Also, I see no reason why you should even call it knowledge. I’m just going to call it “conjectures regarding sensory experience and models pertaining to sensory experience that utilize non-sensory constructs that some believe can be falsified (whether they can or not is not definitive). That’s all they are. Not knowledge what reality is (thank you nominalism). Nothing special. ;-)


    --“No, you're getting ontology and epistemology confused.”

    No, I am not, I’m trying to see if there is any connection between your epistemology and ontology. Others have tried to get you to understand the inherent problem in your beliefs but you either refuse to acknowledge it or simply don’t see it.

    --“ If proposition X is unfalsifiable, that is an epistemic limitation. That does not, in itself, have bearing on its ontology, whether it is natural or not.”
    Well at least this kind of makes sense a bit. But again I see Kant lurking in the background somewhere. ;-)

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  62. “natural world.”

    What does the ontological category ‘natural’ even mean given nominalism?


    -- "that which is unfalsifiable is not meaningful as knowledge".

    Good ol’ positivist rhetoric. Replace verifiability criterion with falsifiability criterion and let’s pretend that the last 50 years of refutation of such narrow-minded theories of meaning didn’t happen. OK.

    So since natural selection is tautological it’s therefore meaningless. Gotcha.

    Finally, the falsifiability criterion is not falsifiable, therefore it’s meaningless. You’ve just refuted yourself.


    -- “What does the "pedigree of a scientific idea" mean if it's false? …….The enterprise of knowledge building stops.”

    That means nothing. A false statement is a false statement. You’re just offering excess and empty verbiage to make it sound as if a false scientific statement is somehow “better” than a false non-scientific statement. This is just rhetoric. Not substance. But thanks for explaining to me how the so-called followers of the “enlightenement” envision science, even though science does not operate like that. Data comes up that can falsify something, it gets ignored. Data often cannot falsify entire theories, paradigms, research programs, your view is again simplistic. One can have an infinite number of “scientific conjectures” so it’s impossible to falsify them all to get to the best one (let’s stop using the term true in regards to scientific conjectures since it does not apply… In fact neither should false since it rests mostly upon utility).


    This is ground theology …. but I think it makes the point.

    This vindicates my earlier comment about your dogma being nothing more than an animus driven by emotion against religion and Theology. Your definition of knowledge is not only false but self-refuting (as I’ve proven), so what you’re essentially saying is meaningless in every sense of the word.But you can continue playing this “game” in your mind all you like.

    I didn’t even bring up Theology by the way. You’re just going off on your own. But if this is some sort of worship of scientism all over again, well… The truth is science cannot even get on the playing field of philosophy because it’s inept. That unlike your empty claim this is a fact. Without philosophy there is no science. So what do people like you do? They reduce reality (without realizing it or admitting it) into a set of sterile scientific conjectures that are nonetheless dependent on philosophical reasoning and metaphysics. If not, science cannot operate and/or cannot inform us about reality.


    --“Theology: not even wrong.”

    That’s funny coming from someone who believes in M-theory.


    --“It can't even rise to being considered 'false'. ….”

    Now you’re just grasping at straws and looking rather desperate. An incorrect conjecture is an incorrect conjecture. Period. There is no pedigree to a conjecture being untrue. You can put all the lipstick you like on that pig, it’s still a pig.

    All you have done in this entire discussion is define terms such as “true” and “false”, “knowledge” in a way that serves your purpose. Managed to contradict yourself over and over again, all the while following a self-refuting epistemological claim.

    Given that you’re a nominalist, what you’re saying has no bearing on reality so it’s all meaningless to us. You’re just bouncing around inside your own skull fighting a virtual war with your arbitrary, ouroboric “standards”.

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  63. Not being able to detect where the matter/energy has gone suffices.

    No, no it doesn't. Because being unable to detect it does not cash out to it being experimentally banished from existence.

    The law is not "we can always detect matter and energy".

    Which is to say, we can account for what we began with, after the experiment (burning, grinding, cooling, etc.). If, experimentally, we cannot "balance the books", the law falls. And specifically with respect to your objection, the model eschews voodoo; this is science, and so "we don't know where it went" doesn't save the First Law.

    Yes, it actually does. Because, no matter how much you struggle with the claim, this remains: at no point do you ever observe, or can you ever observe in principle, "matter being banished from existence".

    Really, your sort of reasoning has been blown up repeatedly in the history of science. Remember: eventually we'll have a classical mechanical explanation of micro-states. Superpositions? Sorry, science doesn't do voodoo. Except, yes, it does. Just as it, contra Galilean physics, did forces like gravity.

    You even see this with your own example. You say "if, experimentally, we cannot balance the books", but whether we can, experimentally, balance the books is the open question. The fact that we can't do it today doesn't mean we can't do it a hundred years for now. The fact that we can't do it a hundred years for now doesn't mean it can't be balanced.

    I am willing to grant that you, personally, may throw in the towel and say "Alright, I can't figure out where the matter has gone. I'm saying the law has been violated." But at that point you're making a subjective judgment call. You still have not, and cannot, observe "matter being banished from existence". And no, your failure to find it does not suffice, anymore than your failure to find your car keys - ever - means your car keys have been verified (by science!) to have been banished from existence.

    You're engaged in science fail here. You don't understand the difference between the domain of science, and the domain of personal judgment. You try to substitute one with the other, and as a result, fumble both.

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  64. TS,

    So are our classification systems grounded in knowledge of nature, and if so, how? If they are not, then the falsification system based on it can't be a knowledge of nature either.

    This is to ask "Are all statements true or all statements false -- YES OR NO?" Neither yes or no adequates. Some statements are true, some are not. If you want to consider a particular classification system, we can apply tests for grounding in nature -- are the distinguishing attributes determined phenomonologically? for example.

    But if we are considering number classification systems, we are not grounding the discriminating attributes in natural phenomena, but mathematic properties....


    Let's just stick with the example you gave and the one we were discussing. That example is the case of a single black swan falsifying the statement "all swans are white." Such a falsification presupposes an ability to classify novel instances of things into either the class of swans or some other class. How is this classification grounded in nature? Remember, the point is to have a way to classify novel instances of things (things you haven't seen before) as either a swan or not, because if you can't do that, you don't know what class the novel instance is supposed to potentially falsify.

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  65. @Touchstone:

    "Proposition X that says set Y has no members with property Z is falsified in mathematical terms, according to the mathematical classifications that establish property Z (and set Y, etc.)."

    A mathematical statement is not falsifiable in any reasonable sense of the word.

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  66. E.H. Munro, what happened to that "Gnu Atheists Guide to Women" post you uploaded a while ago? I remember getting a good laugh out of that, and it would be nice to read it again.

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  67. @grodrigues,

    "A mathematical statement is not falsifiable in any reasonable sense of the word."

    I can believe a mathematical statement to be true, and then be convinced otherwise by being presented with a proof to the contrary.

    I hold that mathematical statements are often falsifiable. Where they differ from scientific theories is that they are also often verifiable.

    @Touchstone,
    I'm a little uncomfortable with the presentation of conservation of energy you seem to be making. If in fact somebody performed an experiment in which some energy was missing and unaccounted for I do not think a sensible scientist would throw out the conservation of energy. What they would do would be to start looking for a new phenomenon involving the missing energy, and possibly extend the definition of "energy" as necessary.

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  68. @reighley:

    "I can believe a mathematical statement to be true, and then be convinced otherwise by being presented with a proof to the contrary."

    Is that how one works nowadays, by arbitrary redefining words? You have made *any* belief falsifiable, since I can always change my mind on any given belief upon the presentation of further considerations. Will you spare me this foolishness, if you please.

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  69. Actually I use to think the same as Reigley, until I realized the statement was something more restrict, like some loose form of empiricism.

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  70. I didn't realize that falsificationists had started pulling the positivist stunt of applying their methodology outside of science. Popper was smart enough to avoid that pitfall. If Touchstone is claiming that the only knowledge is falsifiable knowledge, then that clearly does not include the concepts behind falsificationism itself. How can you explain that falsificationism is better than, say, verificationism? You can't possibly say that it's because it's the "less false" system, because that is an appeal to circular logic. You can't say that it's because verificationism was "falsified", for the same reason.

    You also can't say that it doesn't necessarily relate to reality, but that it's "proved itself to be efficient" (bootstrapping). First, it could only falsify its own efficiency, but even that is circular. Second, none of the information generated by falsificationism may relate to reality. It's a thoroughgoing skepticism that denies truth in favor of pragmatism. Unfortunately, the statement "falsificationism is true" must be made before the system can be used as an objective measure of anything. ("Falsificationism is useful" is either a circular statement or one based on pragmatism, which is also circular.) That statement is beyond the scope of falsificationism. Therefore, a universal application of falsificationism is self-refuting. There's a reason Popper didn't do it.

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  71. Alat: Your comment of 4:33 is ground for shame. You recognize you don't know what you're talking about, but your FEEEEELINGS are still ruffled, so you feel completely justified in being angry. What kind of argument is that? If you don't know what you're talking about, and somebody explains it to you, the proper reaction is gratitude. Try it next time.

    Thank you Alat for pointing out my shamefulness.

    I guess I should just assume that when a Catholic says "there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church", what he or she means is: "Of course there's salvation for non-Catholics - you just need to understand the finer points of Catholic doctrine to know that by 'the Catholic church' we mean 'the body of Christ' which may include non-Catholics."

    Thank you BenYachov for making that clear.

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  72. E.H. Munro, what happened to that "Gnu Atheists Guide to Women" post you uploaded a while ago? I remember getting a good laugh out of that, and it would be nice to read it again.

    My apologies, one of my customers as running an insecure version of wordpress which led to a server hack. I got my customers' websites running again but forgot my own. Here's the article you're looking for. Still have to fix a bunch of scripts, but the sit's running.

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  73. @Rank Sophist

    --"I didn't realize that falsificationists had started pulling the positivist stunt of applying their methodology outside of science. Popper was smart enough to avoid that pitfall. If Touchstone is claiming that the only knowledge is falsifiable knowledge, then that clearly does not include the concepts behind falsificationism itself. How can you explain that falsificationism is better than, say, verificationism? You can't possibly say that it's because it's the "less false" system, because that is an appeal to circular logic. You can't say that it's because verificationism was "falsified", for the same reason.

    You also can't say that it doesn't necessarily relate to reality, but that it's "proved itself to be efficient" (bootstrapping). First, it could only falsify its own efficiency, but even that is circular. Second, none of the information generated by falsificationism may relate to reality. It's a thoroughgoing skepticism that denies truth in favor of pragmatism. Unfortunately, the statement "falsificationism is true" must be made before the system can be used as an objective measure of anything. ("Falsificationism is useful" is either a circular statement or one based on pragmatism, which is also circular.) That statement is beyond the scope of falsificationism. Therefore, a universal application of falsificationism is self-refuting. There's a reason Popper didn't do it.

    Exactly. That's what I've been trying to explain to him. Falsificationism as a theory of meaning is self-refuting. He either doesn't understand it or refuses to understand it. Or maybe he'll come up with some mental gymnastics to avoid addressing the issue just like he's been avoiding the problem posed by David T, for which he has not provided an adequate response for.

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  74. I just looked through The Logic of Scientific Doscovery by Popper, because I could not come to believe that Popper would endorse the reidiculous claims made here by this nominalst/empiricist fella. Straight from the horse's mouth:

    "Note that I suggest falsifiability as a criterion of demarcation, but not of meaning. Note,
    moreover, that I have already (section 4) sharply criticized the use of the idea of meaning
    as a criterion of demarcation, and that I attack the dogma of meaning again, even more
    sharply, in section 9. It is therefore a sheer myth (though any number of refutations of
    my theory have been based upon this myth) that I ever proposed falsifiability as a
    criterion of meaning. Falsifiability separates two kinds of perfectly meaningful statements:
    the falsifiable and the non-falsifiable. It draws a line inside meaningful language,
    not around it."

    This indicates the very limited scope of the falsifiability criterion, which is just fine as a mere tool and should never be elevated to the status of dogma as it is so often mistakenly done such as in this particular case.

    I hope with this, the nonsense will come to an end. Nail, coffin and all that!

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  75. "Of course there's salvation for non-Catholics - you just need to understand the finer points of Catholic doctrine to know that by 'the Catholic church' we mean 'the body of Christ' which may include non-Catholics."

    Daniel Smith, this is incorrect. Just drop it!

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  76. Daniel Smith,

    I left a response to you on your blog.

    Stop sucking up the oxygen.

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  77. Anon at 7:08 PM,

    Thanks for digging up this quote. I knew that Popper didn't endorse positivism--he was, in fact, instrumental in the destruction of positivism. I hope it will help clear up Touchstone's mistake, though.

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  78. Alat: Daniel Smith, Your comment of 4:33 is ground for shame.

    Stuff and nonsense. Daniel asked some perfectly reasonable questions to which BenYacov responded quite uncharitably, even though others had already responded calmly and rationally. In the comment you refer to, Daniel explained why he found the original post shocking and notes BY's hallmark rudeness. If anyone should feel ashamed, it is BenYachov. The fact that some of his posts are polite and informative does not excuse his bad behaviour the rest of the time.

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  79. Brian: Daniel Smith, this is incorrect. Just drop it!

    Consider it dropped.

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  80. Thank you Mr. Green.

    I feel like this subject is a bit to touchy for this blog so I'm not going to pursue it any farther.

    I'm sorry if I've offended any Catholics here with my barbs aimed at BenYachov. He got under my skin (as I got under his!)

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  81. @Mr. Green

    FYI you may read my response to Smith's hypocrisy in the comments box over at his blog in case you missed it.

    http://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=2802903789794976991&postID=5445381165789718164

    Please however post any responses you have over there.

    This distraction has gone on long enough.

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  82. Daniel Smith: I feel like this subject is a bit too touchy for this blog so I'm not going to pursue it any farther.

    Well, I don't think the subject is touchy — just certain people. And it's not even an issue that should be unexpected, given the different meanings that can be applied to the term "catholic". Originally, the "catholic" (or "whole") Church was used to refer to the Church rather than parts of the Church (e.g. the Church at Antioch, the Church at Corinth, etc.). One might anticipate that using the same term as a way to distinguish some Christians from others could lead to a certain confusion. Of course, it's no coincidence that the Catholic Church got that name, and the Catholic [though not "catholic"!] position is that as an institution distinct from Protestants or Orthodox it actually is the seat of the one, true Church's authority; that historical argument for the Catholic Church is one that cannot be brushed aside; but at the same time, neither is it self-evident.

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  83. Well, I know that Dr. Feser has had some pretty disparaging things to say about Luther and various Protestant teachings from time to time. It seems (to me anyway) that his criticisms are based on caricatures of Protestant teachings and not on a thorough study. He often accuses gnu-atheists of doing that with Thomism (and rightly so) so I'm a bit surprised to see him do the same when it comes to Protestant theology.

    Of course I could be all wet - but that was my original intent when I opened this line of questioning at the start of this thread. Unfortunately I overreacted to something BenYachov said and derailed it.

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  84. For anyone still interested - thanks for all the recommendations! I went to Amazon and - after reading the reviews - finally settled on "Return to Rome: Confessions of an Evangelical Catholic" by Francis J. Beckwith.

    It seemed, from the reviews, to be a very balanced, thoughtful book. I'm hoping it shines some light on the things I've been questioning about Catholicism lately.

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  85. Hi Bradley Falaise here,

    I would ask you this: what is prior to notions subscribed to? (Notions of god or no god etc.).
    I submit to you that subscription to notions is not the point.
    Rather, the point is that part of you which underlies but does not participate in phenomena of sense or mind, the part that is ever present within you (as new testament: god is within you), which is complete, needing nothing and is unchanging silent tranquility.
    This, I submit, is the true goal of religious internal enquiry. And once realized, the whole world is realized as its product, mind and sense and including any individuality or personhood.
    Notions subscribed to may reflect this experience, but without this experience mere subscription to notions is intellectual exercise and not more.
    I urge you to examine within to find the gold there. Notions vary. Find that which is unchanging
    and pure beneath each moment, and prior to thought and notion.
    Seek it out and you will find that you are part of eternity itself, the most sublime experience that may be had. From this experience you will ever after speak with authority on God and man and creation.

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  86. You are mistaken Bartholomew.
    Humans have been granted a Free Will to enable them to make choices (God is not interested in boring mindless robots).
    But with Free Will come responsibilities … and consequences for either good or bad.


    This planet was never originally created by God to be a hell-hole. It was intended to be paradise.
    The hell-hole was in fact shaped by humans themselves succumbing to the “falleness” of sin and falling straight into the manipulative hands of Satan and his false promises.
    Does Satan have mankind’s welfare at heart? No.
    But mankind keeps making the same old mistake of being enticed by “hollow pleasures” of materialism, etc and through the sin of the ultimate arrogance of behaving as if he was his own creation.

    Therefore the fault lies with mankind
    - first with the Original Sin (of extreme arrogance)
    - and then with mankind continuing to choose sin. But sin has “very unpleasant consequences“ - even in this life: with mankind continuing to succumb to sin, as never before in history, mankind is continuing to yield to Satan’s temptations which are leading to humankind’s eventual SELF-destruction.. The operative word being SELF-destruction.

    So no, it is in fact Satan (who also had a Free Will and who, unrepentant, chose the sin of arrogance) - who has the sadistic sense of humor… with so many humans unwittingly signing their OWN death warrant - for themselves and for the planet.

    Still don’t believe it?
    Ask yourself - what kind of behaviour brings about …
    AIDS?
    Romans 1, verses 18-32, clearly shows us that there will be a penalty within one’s own body for the sin of sexual irresponsibility - (the ultimate greed)?

    Famine?
    The World Health Organisation has identified conflict, war (borne of ego, greed, etc. and the flight of people from traditional farmlands) - as being THE greatest threat to the production of food and ability of people to feed their families and THE greatest cause of famines.

    The unprecedented collapse of many species of animal and fish and plants?
    Greedy over-fishing? … so that traditional fishermen must put their lives in danger in having to venture further and further for ever-decreasing catches.
    Indiscriminate use of Pesticides? … and the collapse of many insect species (eg bees) and putting at risk the necessary cross-pollination so necessary for plant life? … putting at risk the once-pristine rivers and fish species?

    And these are just a very small handful of examples of how mankind himself is “fouling his own nest”; destroying the very life-giving sources he will soon regret.

    So the finger-pointing should be directed at MANKIND himself and at his OWN stupidity … and his OWN inexcusable arrogance in ignoring the Ten Commandments (summarised in the words of Jesus: “love one another as I love you“.

    Cheers
    Truth-seeker

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  87. You are mistaken Bartholomew.
    Humans have been granted a Free Will to enable them to make choices (God is not interested in boring mindless robots).
    But with Free Will come responsibilities … and consequences for either good or bad.


    This planet was never originally created by God to be a hell-hole. It was intended to be paradise.
    The hell-hole was in fact shaped by humans succumbing to the “falleness” of sin and falling straight into the manipulative hands of Satan and his false promises.
    Does Satan have mankind’s welfare at heart? No.
    But mankind keeps making the same old mistake of being enticed by “hollow pleasures” of materialism, etc and through the sin of ultimate arrogance of "behaving as if he was his own creation".

    Therefore the fault lies with mankind - first with the Original Sin (of extreme arrogance) and then with mankind continuing to choose sin. But sin has “very unpleasant consequences“ - even in this life: with mankind continuing to succumb to sin, as never before in history, mankind is continuing to yield to Satan’s temptations which are leading to humankind’s eventual SELF-destruction. The operative word being SELF-destruction.

    So no, it is in fact Satan (who also had a Free Will and who, unrepentant, chose the sin of arrogance) - who has a sadistic sense of humor… and has so many humans unwittingly signing their OWN death warrant - for themselves and for the planet.

    Still don’t believe it?
    Ask yourself - what kind of behaviour brings about …
    AIDS? over-indulgence?
    Romans 1, verses 18-32, clearly spells out that there will be a penalty within one’s own body for the sin of sexual irresponsibility - (the ultimate greed)?

    Famine?
    The World Health Organisation has identified conflict, war (borne of ego, greed, etc. and the flight of people from traditional farmlands) - as causing THE greatest threat to the production of food and ability of people to feed their families.

    The unprecedented collapse of many species of animal and fish and plants?
    Greedy over-fishing? … so that traditional fishermen must put their lives in danger in having to venture further and further for ever-decreasing catches.
    Indiscriminate use of Pesticides? … and the collapse of many insect species (eg bees) and putting at risk the necessary cross-pollination so necessary for plant life? … putting at risk the once-pristine rivers and fish species?

    And these are just a tiny handful of examples of how mankind himself is “fouling his own nest”; destroying the very life-giving sources he will soon regret.

    So the finger-pointing should be directed at MANKIND himself and at his OWN stupidity … and his OWN inexcusable arrogance in ignoring the Ten Commandments (summarised in the words of Jesus: “love one another as I love you“.

    Cheers

    Truth-seeker

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  88. Well, we still have no definition and thus no evidence for any god, so it doesn't matter what part of the "story" you attempt to discuss, the god thing is still just a work of fiction.

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  89. This disgust is a result of what C.S. Lewis calls, "A cause to be uneasy..."

    The recognition of there being a supreme moral law, a supreme moral law giver and our having been in wrong standing with this moral law giver. The love ad admiration we have towards the cGod of classical theism is in response of His response during our being in wrong standing of his law.

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  90. (MinTee)

    "Going straight to the incoherence of sola Scriptura implies that we cannot argue from Scripture, and that just is not true."

    Scripture is not incoherent when it's authority is from God. When it is "Sola Scriptura", meaning it stands on it's own authority, then it is incoherent (incoherent- unclear, confusing (Google Dictionary)), as its purpose (telos) becomes lost. What would the point of the Bible be if God rejected it? What authority would it have if God rejected it?

    Of course, proponents of Sola Scriptura would then argue that its authority came from God, and that it is all one needs. The problem then comes in the questions: "How do we know it is from God?" "How should each part of the Bible be interpreted?" Worse off, the Bible explicitly says to not follow "Sola Scriptura" essentially.

    You are right though in pointing out that one can argue from Scripture, though some of the questions I gave above would have to be dealt with. As a Catholic, the idea of a Catholic (Universal) Church appears to be one valid solution.

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  91. Excellent testimony of your journey from atheism to theism. As a fellow believer and avid reader of the ancient classics, I have to agree with your conclusions. My own doctoral work was in theology (soteriology) but I cited numerous philosophical works that shaped my thinking--especially as they related to the redemptive work of Christ. I enjoyed reading this blog and your latest piece on Aquinas (which actually led me here).

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  92. This article was pretty long so I will read it later but I am seeking God. Plus I know this comment section is old but, wow! This Christian name Ecuardo (I think) is making me think that I should stay believeing in God. But I'll read the article later (the problem is that I didn't undertand it...too much big words for a 14 year old)

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  93. Oh boy, ignore that other comment I made. Tbh, I don't know what to believe anymore. But I will try to read this long ass article.

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  94. If it's inescapable, then it's more than just implied. I would say that it does not drive us necessarily to conclude that God has a twisted sense of humor, let alone any sense of humor at all.

    A deficiency in a created being is not the same as a deficiency in the Creator. The only way a deficiency in the creation must mean a deficiency in God is if the creation equates to God. The creation is not God. Therefore, a deficiency in B, B not being A, does not lead us to logically conclude a deficiency in A.

    If you look at a car in a scrap heap that has no hope of rolling down the highway, and from that conclude that Ford made a car that cannot be driven, you are using faulty logic.

    I don't believe mankind ever existed on earth in a state in which we did not defecate. But my point is not to tell you what I believe; it's only about what is or is not necessitated by logic.

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  95. Dr. Feser,
    As I read through this article, a half-baked question popped into my head: was Aquinas a neutral monist (with qualification)? I just finished the relevant sections of the Psychology chapter of Aquinas, those mentioning the view of Aquinas that in thought and/or observation the mind possesses the form of the object being thought of or observed. Does this mean that mental events, while being immaterial aspect, are at least analogous in substance (in Aquinas' sense) to the object about which the event is directed toward? Would Aquinas have partially agreed with Russell that,"sense data could exist apart from a conscious subject which was aware of them"? I realize that Aquinas wouldn't agree fully with this statement, as he held that the intellect was fundamentally immaterial, but, given that he held that the form of objects thought or observed are held in substance by the intellect, to what extent would he agree with Russell?

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  96. I am doing Aquinas 101 and was referred to a podcast by you and wanted to know who you are and your background. I did not understand most of what you said here. But I was moved by your journey. I could see the steps. Some of them dancing, some twirling with the joy of the undergrad. Some trudging with the continuity of man's struggle to identify himself and God. You spoke in words I did not understand. But you spoke with the Word. Thank you

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  97. With all due respect, Edward Feser is a liar. Nobody comes to religion with such intensity out of the pure, intellectual merits. That simply doesn't happen. There is more going on that he isn't telling us. Most likely, there was a woman motivating him, or he has some magical revelatory experience, or he just got really terrified of the prospect of dying. Whatever it was, it certainly wasn't the deranged ramblings of Aquinas.

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  98. I also knew at a very young age that Catholicism wasn't true. The human mind is not the same for everyone. Some are easily indoctrinated. Others are not. Yes, many kids sit in a church wondering why all the others believe obvious nonsense. As one ages they can if they want study the human mind and human cultures to get a better understanding of why humans are superstitious. Others that question what they are taught but want to keep believing can find volumes of information published to reinforce their indoctrination. So the seek confirmation bias in those sources to ease their cognitive dissonance. Motivated reasoning is used. Not logic or reason. A human can be rational in other aspects of their life but still cling to their irrational belief. Whether Catholicism, Scientology, Voodoo or any other false belief. Why humans believe matters. What they believe is based on their nurture. They are taught it culturally. This site cares about Catholicism. Hitchens isn't necessarily discussing Catholicism or Christianity. You would likely not find real human sacrifice to the Aztec gods to be necessary let alone find that their assertions are true. Right? There are real reasons that religions and gods were invented by humans. The gods asserted by humans are not real. I have many family members that are Catholic, friends too. I also know Jews, Muslims and others. All are bright, function well in life and believe. All are wrong. Not just Catholics.
    Or from your perspective they are wrong except Catholics. There are also very real differences in the human mind that determines how strongly one is attached to a belief. What makes someone kill for their belief? What makes someone think they are correct and others are not only wrong but evil or not human? Tribalism is a real thing. Religion is a cultural and tribal construct. Lot's to it. If you believe it's unlikely that you can change your belief. Others can't change their quite different belief. Others that don't believe can't believe it. There is no new atheist lie. That's projection. The lie you believe was told thousands of years ago and reinforced constantly since. You have to attack others because you can't understand why they don't believe what you do. You don't even understand why you believe what you do.

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